Rooks Win Reset Despite ENY

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by ghi
Zazen ,        you don't know me, but i know your 37mm flak shells, got them in my my mouth, taste bad,

Hehe, sorry buddy. I am doing my best to 'democratize' my ability in the Ostwind with publicly posted guides and such in the interest of fairness. Short-term solution, don't vulch/pork Rook bases.

Zazen

[Grimm]

It must be Monday,   Time for a Big thread about Sunday numbers and why the Rooks are Evil.  

Tune in Next Monday..  Same time,  same channel.


WTG ROOKS!!  

[Arlo]

Actually .. it's still the weekend - being the Laborday holiday and all or this thread woulda gotten lockdown at about 8 this morning central time from topic and first post alone.

{edt} Hmmm ... or maybe not. Seems there was a thread locked today. Hmmmmm ....

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well ... only a couple nights a week. The rest of the week the undeclared truce seems to kick in and the other two countries enjoy superior odds without an ENY or perk penalty.

I can understand this, mind you. Someone hordes you and the natural tendency is to get even. But lets not pretend the truce isn't happening. You can just read the ebb and flow of this forum and see what gets complained about which days - or look at the bar-dar on most weeknights.


If ENY is here to stay then cap it at 30 and put in logic to better determine to whom it gets applied and when. Adding more "2nd line" Jabo planes (P-38D, P-39, P-40N, etc.) would also help ease the "pain."

If you look back at the original thread HT posted pre-ENY implimentation you will see my two major concerns:

Concern #1: While the ENY system provides a handicapping system based on raw numerical disparity of forces it affords no provision or modification for how those forces are arrayed. There is every possibility that the numbers could be-- Rooks:150; Knights:100; Bishops 100, causing a major ENY penalty against Rooks. But, Knights and Bishops may only be devoting 25 players each to fight one another leaving a combined force of 150 players against a severely handicapped, but numerically equal 150 Rooks. This is just an example, but it happens alot, and not just to Rooks. I see Bishops getting the short-end of this stick very often. It's just proof that the ENY system is overly simplified and therefore deeply flawed at its core.

Concern #2: The ENY modifier is based on total players online, including those on extended AFKs and dual-accounters who have their 2nd account signed on with their laptop to another country for whatever reason, skewing the numbers. There is no time-out for AFKs, alot of people even go AFK to take a four hour nap, or leave their computer on all night hoping their country resets while they're sleeping to get perks. I've seen situations recently where Bishops had 150 people online but only 85 in-flight at any given time, whereas Rooks and Knights had 100 people online but 90 in-flight each. But, Bishops were the ones heavily 'modified', this also happens to every country if you observe the 'country status'. The ENY modifier is based on total people logged into the game not the total people having an impact on gameplay. This is a very deep flaw and patently unfair.

A system that attempts to mollify gameplay based on only one set of data, but does not take into account the intracacies and the contextual disposition of that data is incredibly flawed, prone to abuse and unfair to everyone.

Zazen

[flyingaround]

Interesting points.  How about makin' the ENY thing based ONLY on planes in flight vs. people logged in?

I STILL think my idea of fuggin' w/ strat up/down times as a better solution.  Rooks got 2 to 1 odds? Make the outnumbered strats up faster, and the hordes take longer.  Tougher to take a base if ack up's every 10min, and town/vh only down for short periods of time.  THEN the reverse would also help, kill their vh, takes 45 min to up.  (play with the times.  make 'em # dependant like the eny is).

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by flyingaround
Interesting points.  How about makin' the ENY thing based ONLY on planes in flight vs. people logged in?

I

I never understood why it wasn't designed to be this way at the outset. That is the way HT designed the perk modifier. The perk modifier is based on players in-flight, not merely just logged into the game. HT even went so far as to add tracking to players in-flight in the 'country status' interface screen, so he has the data required and tracked but does not use it in the ENY calculations, I find this perplexing to say the least.

Zazen

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Zazen13
...

A system that attempts to mollify gameplay based on only one set of data, but does not take into account the intracacies and the contextual disposition of that data is incredibly flawed, prone to abuse and unfair to everyone.

Exactly ... combine total players online, with bases held, and then factor in planes "in contact" (enemy planes in friendly owned or occupied sectors as a 5-minute trend) and it should be possible to come up with an accurate reflection of what's going on in the MA.

There are at least two serious situations which the current ENY makes worse than before to highlight this problem:

- Odds are even but a country is getting double-teamed and pushed back. The trucing attackers aren't ENY penalized. When reinforcements arrive to the beseiged country, they must try to retake their home bases with an ENY penalty.

- Odds are 125:100:75 (call the countries A:B:C). A is attacking C in force to try to get a reset. B decides to pile on and race for the reset. But only A gets the ENY penalty - B is free to make the odds imbalance even worse and doesn't get penalized for it.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo

- Odds are 125:100:75 (call the countries A:B:C). A is attacking C in force to try to get a reset. B decides to pile on and race for the reset. But only A gets the ENY penalty - B is free to make the odds imbalance even worse and doesn't get penalized for it.

Change the equation to numbers less rather than numbers more and force A and B to both deal with ENY disablement (albeit on a different scale). In other words have the system look from the bottom up instead of from the top down.

As far as "undeclared truces" are concerned. I've been an advocate of adding one (or more) new sides to the equation for awhile now.

Add "Diplomacy" to the game of "Risk", I say.

[Hornet]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well ... only a couple nights a week. The rest of the week the undeclared truce seems to kick in and the other two countries enjoy superior odds without an ENY or perk penalty.

I can understand this, mind you. Someone hordes you and the natural tendency is to get even. But lets not pretend the truce isn't happening. You can just read the ebb and flow of this forum and see what gets complained about which days - or look at the bar-dar on most weeknights.


If ENY is here to stay then cap it at 30 and put in logic to better determine to whom it gets applied and when. Adding more "2nd line" Jabo planes (P-38D, P-39, P-40N, etc.) would also help ease the "pain."

which gets back to my original thought that the Rooks may only feel the ENY 1-2 times a week anyway. The rest of the time we've all got full planes enabled in a status-quo gang-bang environment ala AH1.

The trucing accusations come up often from all sides, in my experience, the MA is too chaotic to implement them. I do agree that some people have taken to going after Rooks regardless. So there may be a degree of hate building there but it's more of a silent non-organized, non-communicated occurance, which is Healthy because its a new motivation outside of AH's traditional numbers focused motivations...more on this in a bit. Capping at 30 seems reasonable, even lower would work I think.

But it won't cut the ENY whining because this angst is based on a different motivation.

[TBolt A-10]

Originally posted by Hornet
If I was fighting with 3v1 odds I certainly wouldn't be complaining on the BBS about losing a 51D or an La7.  

If ENY-r had restricted only 2 airplanes, this discussion wouldn't be happening.  

[Arlo]

Unless one or both of those airplanes was T-Bolt's fav.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Arlo
Change the equation to numbers less rather than numbers more and force A and B to both deal with ENY disablement (albeit on a different scale). In other words have the system look from the bottom up instead of from the top down.

As far as "undeclared truces" are concerned. I've been an advocate of adding one (or more) new sides to the equation for awhile now.

Add "Diplomacy" to the game of "Risk", I say.

Not sure switching the country geometry would work easily. Most of the terrains are triangular layouts for starters. And as importantly, if there isn't enough leadership available to deal with the current situation, how will diluting it make things any better?

   -DoK

[Hornet]

imo, the source of the problem for HTC for all this is that his community has evolved differently than those in the past.

The combination of perk points and MA resets have focused the sides on the goal of obtaining reset. This leads a country to want to attack the Weakest country.

There is certainly less of a focus on A2A fundamentals, more of a focus on score. Couple this with the reset motivation and players will stubbornly horde, and direct this mob at the weakest foe.

Not the brightest aspect's of human personality on display. Somehow HTC needs to find a way to get the 2 strongest countries to WANT to go at each other.

Its in this respect that the ENY may struggle. But as you aluded to in a previous post Dok, some folks are deciding to attack Rooks now regardless of Reset implications.

The bish were in the hole last night and despite the cries from some Field Generals a big bulk of Nits went after Rooks anyway. Hate? Payback? Maybe...but also perhaps a recognition of numbers seperate from reset conditions.

The #2 country focusing on the #1 is healthy and is what is needed to balance the MA. If HT can some how game design that into the MA, it will attain a better equilibrium.

[Arlo]

Why does every country require a significant border with another? That's where the "Diplomacy" aspect comes in. You mention "unspoken truces" ... let's have actual treaties! Heh.

Leadership? I've as much patience for the average armchair general in this game as I do the mindless berzerker. I don't, nor have I ever, seen the MA as the place where organized scenarios happen. MA is a different kind of fun.

Sure .. there's resets and "winning the war" and all ... but there's quite a few players that don't log on to join "The Crusading Deamons HQ busting mission" or are even remotely interested in resetting the map and earning some points for it. Of course ... there's plenty that do. It seems most of them have gathered on the Rook side (and there's no problem in that, afaic).

Leadership will surface, undoubtedly. Maybe even be more effective in smaller groups.

[TBolt A-10]

Originally posted by Arlo
Unless one or both of those airplanes was T-Bolt's fav.

That isn't true, Arlo.  You have a nasty penchant for poking people with the wrong sticks.  

And, btw, there is nothing wrong with my first post.