Author Topic: '60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake  (Read 5296 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
« Reply #135 on: September 13, 2004, 06:24:46 PM »
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Originally posted by Nash
Lol - you trying to bait me Rip? You cannot be serious...

You keep saying this kinda stuff, and as usual I aint gonna respond to it. It's lower than it is retarded, which is a hell of an accomplishment if it weren't coming from you.

Its all I can assume. You don't give me much to go with Nash. I asked you a simple question, you came back with anger and rhetoric.

With that, I'm logging, dinner, homework...looking forward to your straight answer tomorrow.

Offline Nash

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'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
« Reply #136 on: September 13, 2004, 06:34:35 PM »
Anger? Rage? Violence?

What world are you living in?

I'm dissapointed and resigned about a few things maybe... but if I were angry I'd be entitled to that also.

You know, I am angry about what you just posted. So congratulations, and thanks a lot for that.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #137 on: September 13, 2004, 06:36:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Toad - What do you think of my answer to your question about the Bush file, regarding seperate entries one of which was typed in '68? You wouldn't say that the document that debunks the fraud charge is also a fraud, would you? My God! Forgeries everywhere you look! All lies! LIES I tell you!


The S/N in this thread is pretty large.

I must have missed it and I'm not going back.

Point me at it, please, I'll give you my opinion.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #138 on: September 13, 2004, 06:44:34 PM »
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Originally posted by rpm371
I seem to be in good company Toad.

If they were "using" the Guard to avoid Vietnam so others would take their place, it was not a very honorable. The Guard today and the Guard in 1960-1970's are 2 very different things.


I think if you equate what you've said about Bush to what Colin Powell has said about Bush... it would simply amaze Powell or any other person capable of rational thought that you believe yourself to be in Powell's "company" on this.

My usual litmus test for pegging out the BS meter is whether or not a person will hold the same position and principles if the situation is exactly reversed.

For example if the Bush/Gore Electoral College fiasco had been exactly opposite, with Bush taking the popular vote and Gore taking the Electoral after Supreme Court intervention, would everyone still hold to the same opinions? Would the Gore supporters that are now the "winners" still be crying that the SC decision was unfair or that the "will of the people" was ignored in the popular vote? Would the Bush guys be saying what they say now?

Given this litmus test, I personally don't think you'd be saying the same stuff if Kerry had Bush's "war record" and Bush had Kerry's "war record".

That's just my impression based on your repeated defamations of Bush you've posted here.
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #139 on: September 13, 2004, 06:46:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Point me at it, please, I'll give you my opinion.



========================
Toad:

Nash, what I find interesting in THAT document is that on the first line mentioning the "111th" the "th" is raised. The next THREE times the "111th" is mentioned the "th" is NOT raised.

Nash:

I think the reason for the one raised "th" as compared to the others which were not raised is because these lines represent entries made at different times, and undoubtedly by different people.

The "th" line was typed in '68 (date is to the left).

The others were entered onto the record after that... the last being October of '73.
=========================

Now, AKIron suggested that no, this file was all typed at one time - in '73.

The reason why I'm bringing it up again is because I thought you might know about these kinds of records and how they were kept.

When I look at the file, it seems almost obvious that the entries were made seperately (deterioration of the older entries, bolder ink on some entries, some entries are aligned in the boxes and others are not at all).

Based on what you know about these files and this document in particular, what's your call? All at once? Or updated at different times?

Offline ASTAC

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« Reply #140 on: September 13, 2004, 06:52:40 PM »
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Originally posted by -MZ-
Why not?  It was mostly a big joke, a place for DRAFT DODGERS with family connections.

From the ANG's website:

Vietnam revealed a negative aspect of relying on reservists. For largely domestic political reasons, President Johnson chose not to mobilize most of the nation's reserve forces. The 1968 callups were only token affairs. Johnson's decision to avoid a major reserve mobilization was opposed by the senior leadership of both the active duty military establishment and the reserve forces, but to no avail. The Reserves and the Guard acquired reputations as draft havens for relatively affluent young white men. Military leaders questioned the wisdom of depending on reserve forces that might not be available except in dire emergencies.


Well I gues you're happy then that they are some of the first ones to go nowadays.
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Offline ASTAC

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« Reply #141 on: September 13, 2004, 06:55:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
The only way they can be proven a forgery is if CBS cooperates.  But CBS is closing the book on this particular episode of 60 Minutes.  

If forgery was prooved then a crime has been comitted, and that might end up embarrassing some Democrats.  Not what CBS had in mind.

ra


Kinda suspicious that the aren't cooperating..like they have something to hide..or too much pride to admit they are wrong.
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety

Offline Toad

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« Reply #142 on: September 13, 2004, 07:14:08 PM »
I might have one of those forms up in the attic with my old personnel records. Unless maybe it's a "Guard only" form.  I should go dig it out but it's about 100 degrees in the attic.

Therefore, my guess at this point is that it's probably a permanent part of the individual's personnel folder that is updated as necessary. That is, additional information is entered on the original form as changes occur.

While I'm not really tuned into this "th" brouhaha, you'd still have to assume that those entries were made by the same unit admin section, so did the 111th use superscript ONLY in 1968 and then stop using it in 1969?

Really, I'm guessing this will be either proven or disproven on something other than the mystery "th". But that's a guess on my part.

Did anyone ever verify whether or not Bush did in fact achieve the necessary Guard "points" to fulfill his committment? I think that might be more germane.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #143 on: September 13, 2004, 07:51:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
========================
Now, AKIron suggested that no, this file was all typed at one time - in '73.
 


Having spent 20 years in the Air Force beginning in '73 I've kept a few records myself. As I mentioned, it is not unusual for them to be recreated when worn. I also pointed out the date of the last oer at the top. Without the original document it is impossible for me to tell how many times that date had been replaced with an updated date. However, it appears to be pretty clear. Please don't ignore the fact that I reevaluated the typing and suggested that all of the type from '68-'70 appeared the same to me while the '73 entry looked fresher.

Bottom line, I'm no expert. The experts are saying forgery.


Maybe I'm not being clear about the oer date? What I am saying is that these are required what? Annually? (I was enlisted and wrote a million aprs/eprs but no oers) Anyhow, this record would have been updated everytime an oer was performed, at least 3-4 times if the document was original, yet I see no evidence of that many corrections.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2004, 08:03:59 PM by AKIron »
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Offline -MZ-

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« Reply #144 on: September 13, 2004, 08:08:23 PM »
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Well I gues you're happy then that they are some of the first ones to go nowadays.


No, I am sad that any of them had to go then or now.

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #145 on: September 13, 2004, 08:27:19 PM »
OER's are an annual performance report.

However, there were situations that would require an additional OER. For example, if you or your "rating officer" or "boss" got transferred in the middle of a rating period, the rating officer would write an abbrieviated report for the period you were under his command in that OER cycle.

So, yeah, I can see what Iron is saying as well. If they updated that OER block, it should have been rewritten at least once each year. Given the transfers between units, perhaps even more.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Torque

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« Reply #146 on: September 13, 2004, 08:30:16 PM »
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #147 on: September 13, 2004, 08:59:01 PM »
As for this Guard = Draft Dodgers thing, how many of you folks were alive and of military age during that period?

I was. I accepted an AF ROTC scholarship in 1969 prior to the beginning of the lottery.

College was BY FAR the most common "draft avoidance" technique during the course of the VN war.

This is how it worked.

Quote

The process of deciding which men were actually drafted was controversial from the earliest days of the Vietnam war. Until the institution of the draft lottery, the sequence of induction from among those available for service was set by order of the President, with the highest priority for ‘delinquents’,
second priority for volunteers, and third priority for non-volunteers between the ages of 19 and 25, in
order of their dates of birth (i.e., from oldest to youngest).

Although other groups could be called, most
draft boards were able to fill their quotas from the these three categories, even at the peak of the draft

Technically, men who had held college or other deferments were eligible for induction until age 35. Since few men between the
ages of 26 and 35 were ever drafted, however, men who were able to maintain a college deferment until their 26th birthday could avoid service.

Those who finished a bachelors degree before reaching age 25 could apply for a graduate deferment in the early and middle years of the war (up to 1968) and could apply for occupational or dependent deferments throughout the period from 1965 to 1970.


It didn't really change after the introduction of the "fair" lottery in Dec '69. You could still get a one year college deferment and due to the reduction in requirements, guys that got a deferment as late as '71 permanently avoided military service.

So, let's look at all this.

Bush, like MILLIONS of others had a standard college deferment until graduation from Yale in 1968. We're not talking the "sons of the rich and famous" here. He got the same standard college deferment that anybody going to college could get at any cow college in the Midwest. There really was no preference shown here and he didn't really "take advantage of the system".

Born in July of 1946, Bush was 22 years old in '68. He now had about 3 years of "draft exposure" because as noted not many were drafted any older than that.

He COULD have gone to Graduate school. There's no doubt he could have gotten in somewhere. As a grad student, he'd have gotten another school deferment and been basically immune to the draft until age 25.

But he didn't go to Grad school although that was the "easy way out".

Instead, Bush joined the Guard and probably did get a "leg up" due to his old man. Again, painting this as something "unusual" just means the painter really isn't in tune with the times. The sons of the rich and famous DID get into Guard units easier than the sons of the plebians. But, as I said, this was just the way it was. Heck, I was a dumbaxe and I KNEW that THEN. We all knew that then. That's how the system worked. Just like if you didn't go to college, you were highly likely to be drafted. That's just the way it worked.

Note, I'm not excusing it as "right" but rather as "the system".

Now, some of you equate this joining the Guard as "draft dodging".  Horse doobers. He could have just gone to Grad school, but he joined the Guard.

See "draft dodging" was going to Canada. Joining the Guard, even with the preferential treatment was STILL joining the military and serving your country.

Because the nation required the Guard. Congress wanted it and funded it. SOMEBODY had to join to fill the requirement. Millions did just that.

Was it better than going to VN? Damn straight it was. But those jobs were going to be filled one way or the other.

And for those of you who think Bush is a coward, I invite you to strap on a single-seat all-weather interceptor equipped with instruments that are crude by today's standards and fly night overwater missions returning to penetrate some Houston thunderstorms which are renowned for their ferocity and land safely time after time.

I guarantee you that you will find it more than thrilling.

I really despise those that disparage Bush without having a clue what winning and wearing those wings actually requires.

If I told you what I thought of folks talking through their sphincters like that, it would basically be a line of asterisks.

Now I'll wait and see if the CBS reports stand up to the scrutiny of outside experts. If CBS refuses to allow such scrutiny, I'm afraid I'll have to figure they have something to hide.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Gunslinger

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'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
« Reply #148 on: September 13, 2004, 09:11:56 PM »
If anyone has any Idea on how the guard/reserves works here is a little light shedder on GWB's Guard service.  6 successfully completed drill years

Quote
The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.

That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years.

Not two years of weekends. Two years.

After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements. At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation.

According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis).

Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot. Did you know that?

That brings the story to May 1972 — the time that has been the focus of so many news reports — when Bush “deserted” (according to anti-Bush filmmaker Michael Moore) or went “AWOL” (according to Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee).

Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK. Requests like that weren’t unusual, says retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971.

“In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots,” Campenni says. “The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.”

So Bush stopped flying. From May 1972 to May 1973, he earned just 56 points — not much, but enough to meet his requirement.

Then, in 1973, as Bush made plans to leave the Guard and go to Harvard Business School, he again started showing up frequently.

In June and July of 1973, he accumulated 56 points, enough to meet the minimum requirement for the 1973-1974 year.

Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment. By that time, however, he had accumulated enough points in each year to cover six years of service.

 


I fail to see what the point of all this surrounding Bush's guard years.  He himself has said that Kerry's service was honorable yet for some reason the "spit on the veteran" types of old need a CIC with nam experience.  Sounds desperate to me.

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #149 on: September 13, 2004, 09:15:16 PM »
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That was pretty freakin low Rip. Standard practice for your side tho. Well played.



This coming from a guy who loves to label people "neo con", with practically every other word?  

:rolleyes: