Author Topic: Aces Horde  (Read 3855 times)

Offline Zanth

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
      • http://www.a-26legacy.org/photo.htm
Aces Horde
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2004, 09:32:11 AM »
Too much focus on "winning the war".  Either going for an undefended base, or get so many friends that any defense is meaningless = heaven for a lot of folks these days.  The game is structured that way though, scoring system rewards this type of gameplay (a kill is a kill regardless of the odds and staying alive is easier in a big group) and you even get paid a perk bonus at reset.  

Can't fault anyone for playing the game as designed, can you?

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Aces Horde
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2004, 10:14:16 AM »
This game is completely ghey now. No one fights without massive numerical advantage. Everyone are cowards.

The focus on the "war" and not air combat is ruining gameplay, and it has ALWAYS been clear that players are unable to police their own behaviour. The only way is through the game itself.

ALL other online action games have respawn time limitations to prevent ganging, not AH. Every airfield in AH should only be capable of launching a set number of planes say every 5 minutes for example, and if there is an imbalance of player numbers the respawn time can be changed to allow the weaker side to up planes more often while limiting the stronger side.

When player behaviour gets out of control the people in charge must take action.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline DoKGonZo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
      • http://www.gonzoville.com
Aces Horde
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2004, 10:37:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zanth
Too much focus on "winning the war".  Either going for an undefended base, or get so many friends that any defense is meaningless = heaven for a lot of folks these days.  The game is structured that way though, scoring system rewards this type of gameplay (a kill is a kill regardless of the odds and staying alive is easier in a big group) and you even get paid a perk bonus at reset.  

Can't fault anyone for playing the game as designed, can you?


I think that's part of it.

Lets get a bit theoretical a second ....

The other wrinkle is the "landed kills" messages. You rarely hear anyone get a wtg or thanks for an assist or clearing a 6, but you sure do when someone lands 3 or so kills. It used to be people watched the stats - I don't know if they still do - but I see the reactions online when someone lands 4 or 5 kills. That's the kind of peer approval that people look for.

Consider that two guys take off together. One lands 3 kills and gets all the wtg's. The other lands 1 kill, but did the drag on two of his wingman's kills. And his own kill was picking off someone about to nail Mr. 3-Kills when he was out of ammo and trying to break off. He goes un-noticed.

Now, for the instant-gratification crowd, it's obvious which end of the above equation they want to be on.

In the bigger picture, the fact that two pilots went up and went 4:0 is more important than who got 3 kills and who got 1. But the reward system doesn't favor the true team player - not even with recognition. So there's very little incentive for players to help each other unless they are part of a squad or have simply risen above the game system as it stands.


I mentioned this in some other thread, but what if the brag messages didn't mention player names - only the squad they belonged to? And that it mention all the kills and assists landed (i.e. "A member of the Martha Stewart Squadron landed 1 kill, 2 assists, and 1 structure destroyed.").

That's a very simple change. Maybe it would foster more squad-based play. You're better off in a squad of dweebs than flying alone.

    -DoK

Offline DoKGonZo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
      • http://www.gonzoville.com
Aces Horde
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2004, 10:51:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
...

ALL other online action games have respawn time limitations to prevent ganging, not AH. Every airfield in AH should only be capable of launching a set number of planes say every 5 minutes for example, and if there is an imbalance of player numbers the respawn time can be changed to allow the weaker side to up planes more often while limiting the stronger side.

...


You have the same issue with this as with ENY ... that of when to apply the penalty. Case in point - a country is backed up to their last 8 or 9 bases when reinforcements arrive, or the enemy numbers drop, or both. With just a raw numbers-based limit, this country will likely never get out from under (they won't be able to get enough planes up to counter the nearby defenses just to retake their own bases) and may as well just wait for a reset.

In other words, before you can say what to penalize, you need to know who to penalize. And numbers alone don't tell the story.

    -DoK

Offline kj714

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
Aces Horde
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2004, 11:17:38 AM »
I think if you unbuckled the towns from the airfields and spread them throughout the territory you could bust up hordes. Players would have to make choices between hitting/defending fields and town captures instead of having the two biggest assets together. Everyone would have to  fly a distance to defend/attack and make fighter sweeps and such more viable, instead of just  sitting at your base waiting on the nme to get there.

Instead of reset being won by capturing fields, it could be won by seizing all town assets.

Offline Soda

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1543
      • http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm
Aces Horde
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2004, 11:32:22 AM »
Quantity in the MA, currently, is far more important than Quality, hence the hordes. It's pretty simple, you can fly 1 vs 20 or 20 vs 1, most people try the former, grow tired of it, and then switch to the latter.  Hence you avoid the problem and actually become part of it.  Personally, I'm more than tired of trying to defend against overwhelming odds on almost every attack that arrives because I know my actions probably don't make much of a difference.  Why, because there is no attrition and my attempts at defense are only promoting the same horde from returning over and over and try and pick up kills on me through sheer volume of sorties/pilots they can generate.
 
I really don't buy the "fear of death" arguements.  Firstly, nowhere does it say you have to "fly with your hair on fire" until you die.  That's the choice of the individual and honestly suits the Dueling Arena better than the MA.  Secondly, half the complaints I hear/see are based on individual "A" winning angles but being unable to stop extension, hence the other person simply leaves.  Guess what, that's fair.  If you are at a disadvantage and your options are to press a "bad" situation or extend then most people will extend, even the ones who cry about people having a "fear of death".  Lastly, from a quantity vs quality standpoint, death SHOULD mean something, if it doesn't then you are simply promoting the quantity aspect even more.
 
My solution, as I posted in the gameplay forum, ram all the furball/fly-till-you-die group together and give them what they want, the instant action with no death consequences area.  It's the dueling arena with "scoring" I guess, either that or an isolated area of the map.  That concentrates all the like minds and should provide constant action. They can never really be happy flying against guys who may try to stay alive long enough to accomplish something (ie,players who choose not to engage because they have other plans/ideas/goals).
 
For the strat guys, to balance it out, you are going to have to adjust the play so quality means something.  One method to do that is attrition, local and personal.  You want to balance success/failure to not be overly restrictive but to clearly hand advantage to the victor.  Most engagements in that model would be exactly like a squad duel in the Dueling Arena, over within 1-2 minutes with clear victors (ie, you don't have to deal with constant "re-enforcements".  You can argue people would be even more "timid", possibly, but someone who is not involved is also not helping their strategic situation, eventually you can usually force them to engage you (or entice them) but if they choose ultimately not to then they are just spectators and wasting their time.  If you have "less skill", bring superior numbers, if you have "more skill" then you can probably make due with fewer pilots.  The horde can still come but if it's defeated in the air/ground then it can't simply "come back to finish the job", it's defeated.  Defense in the MA would be possible with this, not essentially hopeless like it is now.  You'd likely see more defenders willing to try and overall the skill level of the average player would have to improve in order to have a chance of success.  Defeated people would have to change fields, hence you also get the benefit of spreading things out (or at least rotating them around to some extent).
 
What this would mean, you die you move on.  Doesn't matter if it's intentional (suicide) or unintentional (ya just got beat), once you die/bail/crash/etc you have to pick another location and decide what you want to do from there.  Suiciding would be possible but mostly a desperate action, just like it should be, because you would know going in that it's a one-shot deal.
 
Two examples:
1)The other night I was running defense with 1 other guy against only 5-6 guys.  They had altitude on every engagement and either were shot down or crashed while suiciding.  Eventually they win as I have to land a damaged aircraft and there are no hangers up anymore to respawn and the other friendly was vulched on the re-arm pad.  Kill/Death ratio for us, 24:1 but we still lost.  Tell me where the fun is in that... I guess it looks good on the score page or on film, if you care.  The enemy simply wore us down with superior sortie rates and fresh aircraft each time... we hung on as long as we could, I got credit for a kill on the same guy 5 times.
 
2)Second, last night, Rooks defending against Knits.  Knits put more aircraft in the air and honestly had no coordination of effort ( I was Knit at the time).  The Rooks ran a much better defense but couldn't really break out simply because they were out-numbered all evening.  A to the Rooks for hanging in there but honestly they should have kicked out butts back to our base in no time had attrition been on.  They beat us soundly in the air, unfortunately they couldn't sortie quite as many guys constantly as we could.
 
The horde/sortie rates won both those engagements even though it shouldn't.
 
There is a strategic attrition level also, Kweassa and Pongo have suggested it in the past, but it's a complementary idea in my opinion.  The simple model of "death-and-move-on" addresses local flying at an individuals level (ie, you can only hurt yourself).  The strategic attrition addresses "Resources" that could be tied into field damage, factories, etc.  That would represent an airfields ability to host lots of sorties (for everyone).  It would also have some impact to quantity though and hence they complement each other.  The strat attrition would really lead into bombing improvements/results and control over the speed at which large groups (hordes) could actually launch and likely give more recruitment/positioning time for defenders.

-Soda

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Aces Horde
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2004, 11:48:37 AM »
DoKGonZo now you're talking about the "war" again. When a "country" is down to 7-8 bases they should already be reset. Actually when they're down to less than 50% of their original bases they should be reset. Resets are now lengthy drawn out affairs that are downright painful to be a part of no matter what side you're on.

By limiting the rate people spawn new airplanes you even the numbers game. If you belong to a "country" that has more players then you have to accept standing in line to get your chance of fighting. That's only fair. "Fair" is a word the holds no meaning in a game world where there are no rules or regulations. AH used to be controlled by the "honour system" since most of the players were WWII plane enthusiasts that had actually sought out this obscure little gem of a game in some dark corner of the gaming industry. Now after heavy advertising AH is filled with more general minded people and kids who often have gaming experience from other online games and that has no idea of what our old "honour system" means, and really doesn't care much either.

The "honour system" worked because the community was small, the average age was higher, and most people cared what the others though of them. If you did something the others frown upon you were told on ch1 and most of the time that was enough. Now there are so many new players that most people feel anonymous and really do not care much what others think of them, and ch1 is no more. A mistake by HTC in my opinion.

AH was ill prepared for this change in player mentality, and since HTC did not implement player control mechanisms in the game prior to the influx of new players, they are now forced to react. At first people start whining, then they stop playing, and after a while they stop paying.

When AH came out from under the rock of a close knit numerically insignificant player community and into the light of a true massively multiplayer environment they needed to be prepared for it. They weren't. What we call suicideing, hoarding, gangbanging, spawn camping, lanc-divebombing etc. is called "exploits" in other games, and other game developers have no qualms about stomping down on such behaviour by limiting their ability to "exploit" through game mechanics. They know that in the long run they are better off by stomping down on a few "sploiters" and risk losing a few of them, than let those few "sploiters" ruin the game for everyone else ... or even worse, turn everyone into "sploiters" that only get more and more frustrated since the game has now become repetitious and boring.

AH has ceased to be a simulator, and has become a game, because that is defined by the mentality of the players.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 11:53:00 AM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Aces Horde
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2004, 12:37:15 PM »
I think in this case I am probably going agianst popular opinion.
I think part of the problem is the fields are TOO CLOSE together, all this does is encourage the conveyor belt that keeps the hoard active.
By spacing them out more the chances are a hoard won't last long after it has lost the majority of its participants.
A perfect exmaple is say an attack that went 2 sectors, goon gets shot down or the majority of its participants very rarely receives any reinforments.

I also believe the problem has been made worse by the unporkable fuel situation.

I actually think we are at a crossroads, the difference between the furballers instant action and the strategists way of thinking.
I don't believe the two styles can co-exist on the same 'Map' any longer.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 12:48:38 PM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline kj714

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
Aces Horde
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2004, 01:18:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
I think in this case I am probably going agianst popular opinion.
I think part of the problem is the fields are TOO CLOSE together, all this does is encourage the conveyor belt that keeps the hoard active.
By spacing them out more the chances are a hoard won't last long after it has lost the majority of its participants.
A perfect exmaple is say an attack that went 2 sectors, goon gets shot down or the majority of its participants very rarely receives any reinforments.

I also believe the problem has been made worse by the unporkable fuel situation.

I actually think we are at a crossroads, the difference between the furballers instant action and the strategists way of thinking.
I don't believe the two styles can co-exist on the same 'Map' any longer.


The conga line would probably stretch as far as it had to.

Online Shane

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7917
Aces Horde
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2004, 01:21:23 PM »
further apart fields will still result in a conveyor belt, except now they'll have alt.

and with further apart fields defense(s) will be hampered by the time required to get there.

that's my take on that particular statement.


edit: as an aside, lately (not that i've been on much the past few weeks, but prior to then) i've been seeing much more "defensive" hording, in where a big blob of red will not venture more than a few miles from their base, even when the "green" #'s hitting that base are a trickling conveyor of many less planes.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 01:23:54 PM by Shane »
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline DoKGonZo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
      • http://www.gonzoville.com
Aces Horde
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2004, 01:43:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
...
By limiting the rate people spawn new airplanes you even the numbers game. If you belong to a "country" that has more players then you have to accept standing in line to get your chance of fighting. That's only fair. "Fair" is a word the holds no meaning in a game world where there are no rules or regulations. AH used to be controlled by the "honour system" since most of the players were WWII plane enthusiasts that had actually sought out this obscure little gem of a game in some dark corner of the gaming industry. Now after heavy advertising AH is filled with more general minded people and kids who often have gaming experience from other online games and that has no idea of what our old "honour system" means, and really doesn't care much either.
...


Yes. All too true.

But making people queue up to fly is just bad for business. I've been in HT's position, and I can take a good guess at what his answer would be. There are some ways to do this - maybe factor in ENY so it's either sit it out for 5 or 10 minutes or fly a 30+ ENY plane right now. "Gamers" will understand the concept of "rebuilding resources" to get a cool weapon again.

    -DoK

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Aces Horde
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2004, 01:44:23 PM »
Noticed the defensive hoarding also Shane.
Never thoguht about fields further apart hampering defensive sorties to bust caps.
Hell, I give up.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Tilt

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
      • FullTilt
Aces Horde
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2004, 01:45:04 PM »
Gang Banging

Coming from AW in 2001 the first thing that struck me was that the combination of FM and GM (gunnery model) meant that for the average player "saddling" did not produce the kill as quickly or cleanly  in AH as it did in AW.

Mentalities were the same in both but whilst two chasing one happened regularly in AW, in AH it was often 2, 3 or 4 chasing 1 simply because the 1 (whilst obviously hooked) took longer to despatch.

1 v 1 fights between opponents with matched packages take longer in AH and this gives more time for others to intervene.

Given this, and the reward structure (AH rewards kills, rather than shames deaths) players, whilst fighting the enemy, are competing with allies for kills.

Such competition at a micro level spreads up into the macro community behaviour.

AH Heros

AW had its hero's. They became cult figures within the AW community. They were no saints, guilty of much we see here in AH but their rep was one of supporting a "code" under which all players were equal. (even if some were more equal than others)

AH "hero's" are predominently whiners, or at least we see from their rep that this seems to be the case. At least their "code" if there is one, is not one the community wishes to follow or when it does it picks up the negative aspects because those are the only ones on offer.

Behaviour modification.

HTC can provide an environment. It can modify the environment to promote certain gameplay trends but it cannot force it. Niether can it make every one who plays "nice soldiers".

The community could be a hatefull place, full of cynicism, sarcasm, degrodation and complaint.  Gutter level human interplay.

The community could be  positive, motivating, reassuring and sporting, which would probably be dreadfully boring.

It is somewhere in between. But where it is in between is down to us. We dont get there by whining, we don't get there by manipulating the gameplay, we do the small things that make us part of the community we want to be a part of.

If we see stuff we really don't like we could mention it once (at the time and place it happens)without cynicism or derogation then move on.

The Horde

Was ever thus. But it is made up of individuals by definition it is leaderless, lacking a moral code. The Horde rewards individuals(or else they would leave) it binds them at a tribal level to its self. "Codes" have difficulty rising above tribalism. The tribe is the code, it will resist attack and fight critcism

But the individual will leave for better rewards , if they are on offer.

Hero's and leaders are granted the influence over the masses to develop the community on a macro level. The methodology is varied and made easier when "lesser" parts of the multitude promote the change also and promote change at a micro level. eg offerring the kill to a country man rather than competing for it.

In summary, however much the gameplay environment helps or hinders, the  game play is a product (directly or indirectly) of our conduct.


Community heal thy self.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 01:49:45 PM by Tilt »
Ludere Vincere

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Aces Horde
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2004, 01:48:34 PM »
Agreed Tilt, but somewhere along the line there must be leader to initiate the hoard.

Still think the answer is to turn the under used DA into a furballing arena, with scores etc. Return the MA to its previous DAR killing, fuel killing state, and changes to enhance the importance of strat targets.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2004, 01:52:05 PM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Aces Horde
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2004, 02:06:48 PM »
I am always in aw of the players who post here. For the greater part all are knowledgeable beyond myself on the game and the real life aspects of WW2 and its aircraft. Most out fly me to the point of making me a fan with envy. You have all earned your wings more so than I.

Tilt said it much less pomp(ass)ly than I. Each of you in your small actions are the change in the MA. You are the game itself. Where you lead with positive reinforcment, most will follow. The game devolved to where it is now because it got away from you.

I am firmly commited to the belief that each of you can change the direction of this game back to something better. You have to lead by example, and talk to EVERYONE, not just your squad mates and circle of freinds.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.