Aces Horde

[Soda]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Noticed the defensive hoarding also Shane.
Never thoguht about fields further apart hampering defensive sorties to bust caps.
Hell, I give up.

I think the "defensive horde" is simply a lot of guys getting hung up fighting the first person they see that's red.  10 guys all chase 1, pretty common, it's a race to the kill but ties up 10 guys for 1 kill.

It's not facing a superior number of aircraft that I consider the "horde", its the unending re-enforcement of the same superior numbers until they overwhelm you, eventually.  You watch what would happen in the MA if they didn't let you re-up from a field you already died at within the last 10 minutes (or more).  Nobody would sit in the tower to wait, they'd move on or try to come back from another field.  The horde would be finite and thus beatable.  It would still be valid (HT has said he doesn't see a problem in localized superior numbers, it's simply smart) but I bet it wouldn't be as localized and constant as now.  The superior numbers arrive, you'd get a quick and bloody battle (like a squad duel in the Dueling Arena) and the victors would control the area.  Imagine, all the guys who run away because they were losing, you could chase them back to their fields and not have to worry about their already "dead" buddies upping to jump you on the way... those are the sorts of things that Attrition would add.

Attrition only has to be locally limiting though, it's on a field by field basis so you could simply move and launch somewhere else.  That would, alone, spread the fights out a bit.  You'd probably see less hording other than as a squad or for organized missions.  Right now hordes tend to form as people simply join in where they see even or better friendly numbers and thus create the imbalance.  A higher level of attrition, at a resource or country level if something complimentary but not quite the same.

-Soda

[HUN]

I wonder what would happen if they eliminated all kill sortie messages and all scoring for 1 camp in AH?  Would people fight more aggressive when they don’t/can’t keep track of their stats and “skill”?

[Chortle]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I think that's part of it.

Lets get a bit theoretical a second ....

The other wrinkle is the "landed kills" messages. You rarely hear anyone get a wtg or thanks for an assist or clearing a 6, but you sure do when someone lands 3 or so kills. It used to be people watched the stats - I don't know if they still do - but I see the reactions online when someone lands 4 or 5 kills. That's the kind of peer approval that people look for.

-DoK

I think this is spot on, at least it's something I've wondered about. Whenever I've landed large kills (which is rare) and people wtg me, I've always tried to point out what they were, like vulches, 0 alt bombers, people auguring beside me etc. Quite a few people will tell you that a kills a kill, no matter what the circumstances, which isn't an attitude that encourages skillful use of the tools available. Same with spawn camping in GVs, I just dont get it. I prefered the scrolling kill messages which racked up after each kill, I think it encouraged more aggressive behaviour.

The other thing I wondered about was when the numbers were being discussed. I think disabling the 'player landed 3 kills' messages for the team with numbers might help as I've a feeling those that fly in numbers are also those most excited by seeing their names in lights.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Yes. All too true.

But making people queue up to fly is just bad for business. I've been in HT's position, and I can take a good guess at what his answer would be. There are some ways to do this - maybe factor in ENY so it's either sit it out for 5 or 10 minutes or fly a 30+ ENY plane right now. "Gamers" will understand the concept of "rebuilding resources" to get a cool weapon again.

    -DoK

I'll give you an example. Planetside is a game I've just started to play, simply because AH no longer holds much fun for me. Planetside is much like AH in the basic concept of base capture, and you have lots of vehicles, aircraft and different infantry weapons/armor. Perhaps it is more like a futuristic WWIIOL, but still.

Since I'm a newbie I die a lot, I don't know better, however if I die too frequently I get penalties of increased respawn times. If one empire has more players than another they get penalized by lower max health levels, damage, etc. while the underdog gets bonuses.

[Delirium]

I had one of the best flights I had in a long time, last night. Rust, Ren, and I flew to a heavily populated enemy base and engaged well beyond our number in fighters.

I didn't get alot of scalps, but the amount of enemy made the scalps I was given credit for was worth much more to me.

Kweassa, you're a good guy, please, do not start sounding like Zazen with sweaping generalizations.

Originally posted by Kweassa
Facts

* MA gamers are lazy cowards.
* They never work themselves.
* They never earn their own kill.
* All they want is easy kills.
* They don't really want a "fight". They only want a vulch.
* When enemy presence is high, people choose run away.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by B17Skull12
no it is just the furballers style of game play has been ever so limited now days  that there really is no other viable option to hording.

How would you know?  I'm a furballer and none of my options have been removed from me at all, nor have I been 'limited'.  This horde mentality has been in online flight sims from the beginning, way before you were even born.  You really don't have a clue and stop parroting other people and form an original thought for once.


ack-ack

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by GScholz
I'll give you an example. Planetside is a game I've just started to play, simply because AH no longer holds much fun for me. Planetside is much like AH in the basic concept of base capture, and you have lots of vehicles, aircraft and different infantry weapons/armor. Perhaps it is more like a futuristic WWIIOL, but still.

Since I'm a newbie I die a lot, I don't know better, however if I die too frequently I get penalties of increased respawn times. If one empire has more players than another they get penalized by lower max health levels, damage, etc. while the underdog gets bonuses.

I agree in concept ... its just that the application has to be something that works out for AH and HTC. If you think there's whining now, imagine if people were forced to sit on the ground and watch (granted, a lot of 'em do this now ... but when the choice is removed, they'll whine).

And the ways people can optimize their gameplay around this also needs to be considered.

    -DoK

[bustr]

Originally posted by GScholz

When player behaviour gets out of control the people in charge must take action.

And look how players reacted to the ENY.

Everyone in this thread speaks with a fondness for AH that says it ain't dead nor broken. Hitech being one of the oldies may have the same faith in YOU,, the core of AH that I do. If he has to step in, will it stay the undefinable wonderful thing you've created? This game is not the binary bits, bites, and code. This game is you the community. Hitech cannot code something to compete with your own uniqness.

All of YOU created the AW, Warbirds and AH way of life. Excuse me but in the history of our modern world this has been a true extraordinairy experiment. The players made a fantasy into an admirable code of conduct, and way of life.

It is too easy to digress into statistics and formulas. DoK is right, it becomes a job to influence the newer players with the AH Code of Conduct. If you go back to conducting yourselves in the manner you want the hoardies to act, and set that as the acceptable expectation for behavior from them, enough will join this way of life.

Take it back to the basics. Each player counts the same in contributing to the sum total of the game. Shane, DoK, Tilt, or a noname Hoardie. You get back from the game what you put into it. Treat others how you wish to be treated. Make the first move and stop expecting them to live up to your unspoken standards.

Start flooding the country channels with the good old AH Code of Conduct and Chivalry.

[kj714]

I wonder who is supposed to be "in charge"?

You know if you want to A2A, just get a couple of your buds and start heading toward a quiet nme base on the periphery of the main battle. Pick your airspace where you want to fight, advertise by getting your DAR going and get the base flashing, someone will rise to the challenge guaranteed. Try to hold back from ganging them, let them get up and get some e going, and voila, *dogfight*. After you shoot 'em down or vice versa, I'll bet a couple more will come along pretty quick like. Some people don't really dig the horde, do a little work yourself, build it and they will come!

[GScholz]

Those are good sentiments, but nothing to do with reality. The reality is that the old players are no longer the core of AH, and their most effective way of community policing has been taken away: ch1. The old guys are leaving in frustration while the new guys grow in numbers. I hardly ever see a familiar handle in the MA these days, and when I do it's just one or two, among hundreds of anonymous new guys. And when people feel anonymous there is no community spirit.

What AH once was, is no longer. What AH is now is a gem of a game that is woefully unprotected against the reality of massively multiplayer game mentality. The same problems that every other multiplayer game has had to deal with.

[kj714]

Just one more thought, maybe some of the problem is the maps in that the current ones in rotation are all pretty well worn. Everyone knows the hotspots and heads right for them. You know how it is - a crowd loves a crowd.

[GScholz]

The maps are irrelevant, they have been changed and thinkered with for years. As long as the point of the game is to win the "war" and the players are willing to "game the game" to do it ... nothing you do to the map will change anything.

[kj714]

Originally posted by GScholz
The maps are irrelevant, they have been changed and thinkered with for years. As long as the point of the game is to win the "war" and the players are willing to "game the game" to do it ... nothing you do to the map will change anything.

True, I guess thats right. I don't give as much weight to the "win the war" thing personally because it happens so infrequently. IMHO, I think it only kicks in really when one country gets down to where that goal can be realized in a relatively short time. Then everyone jumps on the reset bandwagon.

I believe that I observe the same bases getting horded on the same maps frequently, just seems to be a pattern.

[bustr]

At any time I logon and look in the roster, the majority of players belong to a squad. That means as individuals thay have made a minimum commitment to being the community in AH. Flying with their squad mates they are experiencing a microcosim of the greater experience being laid six feet under by you folks post by post since AH2 released.

The squads can turn the game play around. God knows the Rooks surprised everyone. They changed the space between their ears and changed the game. Anything good is worth working for. It's never handed to you on a platter. You'd be suspect of it anyway. Hitech has created the fabric for this fanatsy universe so we can paint the picture.

The squads that are left, who are the core of AH now, can turn this around.

GScholz
Instead of listing all the reason why nothing will work to make it like it was,  use that sharp mind of yours to list ways to get the squads to buy in to it, and how to get the individual Hoardies to buy in.

You cannot sell an IDEA by listing all of the reasons why it won't work. You sell it to yourself first by listing all of the reasons why it will. That presupposed you still want it to.

Do you folks ever worry that this BB is driving potential new members away? Sometimes you almost get me to doom and gloom, and donate a nail for the coffin.

[GScholz]

Acknowledging that there is a problem and defining what the problem is, is the first step in finding a solution. I seriously do not think there are any "lenient" ways of dealing with the mentality of online gamers. I have yet to see an online game that managed to police itself except AH of old.

I have already proposed one possible solution in this thread, and that is the implementation of spawn-time limitation to airfields. There will be whines because all players want to do exactly what they want all the time ... it is only when they grow tired of it and finds that their own gameplay choices have limited their options to do other things, that they realize how their own behaviour ruined the game.

At that point most will whine for a while, and when nothing changes because most other players haven't gotten to that point yet and still want to do "exactly what they want" they simply quit, thereby ensuring that the "exactly what they want" crowd stays in majority.

About squads: How many squads actually fly together anymore? Sure there are some, but mostly they are just loosely operated clicks that sometimes fly together when they happen to be online at the same time. How often does people post missions nowadays? Very rarely. Really, what's the point of squads or missions when 90% of the players fly together in hordes? None.

An amendment to the spawn-time limitations may be squads. To promote squad based gameplay squads should be able to take off at the same time. However then that airfield becomes unavailable for other squads for some time to avoid "gaming the game" and creating hoards of squads. That will promote the organisation of structured squads and squad vs. squad warfare while limiting the need to hoard (because the other countries can't do it either). You can still organize a big raid by joining several squads together, but they would have to take off from different airfields and form up like they did in real life. This takes time and since they don't have the luxury of immediately available replacements for their losses, the mission would have to be planned and executed in a manner that conserves resources ... staying alive. No more suicideing and reupping repeatedly.

Of course all the minor exploits in the game also needs to be fixed, like dive-bombing Lancasters and NOE B-17 raids etc.