Author Topic: Aces Horde  (Read 3853 times)

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2004, 06:42:06 PM »
Just see the "Urchin" thread to see what I mean by the different mentality of the "old hands" and the new guys. Of course the thread is nicely framed with the usual BBS mindset of grown men behaving badly.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2004, 06:55:06 PM »
Of course when you have a whip in place you can also dangle candy from it when you're not whipping people. Like someone mentioned (failed to find the post again ... sorry) if you have a spawn-time limit it is easy to use that to give players options of flying/driving less formidable planes/vehicles with the added carrot of reduced spawn-time waiting ... thereby creating more diversity of equipment actually in use in the arena. So if someone really needs to get back in the fight fast to help the squad or secure an objective they could perhaps just wait 30 seconds and up an early-war plane instead of waiting a couple of minutes for a late-war monster.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline bustr

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« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2004, 07:01:31 PM »
GScholz,

What I care about is we have a thread that ran 2 pages and has been civillized. That means the contributers just needed a nuge to remember how much they like this game. In your own stoic way you want the game to succeed. You do have positive ideas.

I refuse to be down about the game taking a turn I\We wasn't expecting. When given lemons, make lemonaid.

Each member of a squad at one time was a lone flyer. One person talked to him/her and they liked what the heard and joined, then followed. People follow Ideas that make them feel good about themselves. These Ideas can only be transmitted person to person. Most people are afraid their Idea will be rejected and never open thier mouths to other than their closest companions if at all.

Good Ideas communicated enough times in person have a greater chance of catching on than singing to the choir on this BB.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline GScholz

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« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2004, 07:08:44 PM »
My problem is that my ideas can only be implemented by HTC, not the community. I know with reasonable certainty that the community will not be able to restrain itself, because it is against the nature of warfare, and human nature in general. Only by having penalties for actions deemed undesirable can a crowd of people be restrained in their actions.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2004, 08:09:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
My problem is that my ideas can only be implemented by HTC, not the community. I know with reasonable certainty that the community will not be able to restrain itself, because it is against the nature of warfare, and human nature in general. Only by having penalties for actions deemed undesirable can a crowd of people be restrained in their actions.


Well ... yes and no. Meaning a lot of things like what planes are available at what fields, building toughness, and a bunch of other settings are all handled in the arena config. I think some of the ideas people have mentioned could be at least partly implemented via the configs.

Maybe what's kind of needed is someone to have the role of "community manager" in the sense of keeping things in the MA a little less predictable by loading different configs once in a while to keep people off balance (not mentally ... we're already that). I think that there's so little change in the MA itself that is contributing to the problem.

This would also allow HTC to experiment with ideas ("What if we did 3 days of 1942 planes?") instead of having to try to guess right with every major upgrade.

    -DoK

Offline Duchess

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« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2004, 09:11:08 PM »
OK...my account has been verifed and I can finally reply to this whole 'there's a girl on AH2?' - 'she cannot possibly know what she's doing, she's using the joystick wrong, not even holding it correctly' - 'is Duchess REALLY a GIRL?' and so forth and so on.  

I find y'all EXTREMELY amusing!  Guys, seriously, lighten up!  It's a game!  I fly so that kj714 and I have some fun playing together.  I like my squaddies (PROUD to be a Dirty Fokker!) and most of the guys I've played with have been fabulous (there are those exceptions)!  

I am DEFINITELY female.  The pic is me, KJ took it spur of the moment last night - it was supposed to be humorous - those of you that missed that need a bit more humor in your lives.  "Step away from your computers and laugh a little!"  :D  

There are several females on AH2.  I couldn't name them at present, but they're there.  We're having a little fun and enjoying the moment.  I, personally, haven't made any restrictions or had any complaints on your crying or ranting, cussing and sexist comments.  It's hilarious!  The other gals are probably just as amused.  We know that the men are the majority here.  

Now, that said - I'm having a fabulous time still.  I'll probably be here and there for some time - so you'll see me on occasion.  I get shot down, I get back up - that's the game.  If I can land a couple of my kills - that makes it a really cool day!  Hehehe!    

Death to all ENEMIES!  See you in the air!  Have fun!

Cheers!
Duchess

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2004, 09:30:16 PM »
welcome to the AH bbs Duchess,  don't listen to most of these bloks....they all nonsense for the most part!
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline jetb123

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« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2004, 12:15:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by kj714
She'll be on soon enough, got her login going.

She's having a blast flying with everybody.

Just to straighten out that she's REALLY a girl (for you, Hitcher)
Here she is shooting ya down:

DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Duchess:o :o :o :o ;) :cool: :) :o :o DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. M..u..s.t get..b.a...c.k....to...a.c.es h.i.gh.

Offline jay1988

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« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2004, 12:22:35 AM »
Lmao jet

Offline anton

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« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2004, 01:00:39 AM »
Hello duchess, welcome to AH & to The BBS, Congratulations to kj for finding a gal that wants to spend time with him flying. It brings back fond memories of about 7 years ago when "U" had his Gal "Khat" fly with him back in that game that us old timers came from.  Yep, Thats right, there was gals flying long, long before you came to AH. Dont get me wrong here, I'm glad to see you & hope you have about 5 sisters or maybe even just good friends of similar mindset. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 Females that have been playing AH longer than me (goin on yr 4) Flossy, Silat, & Dyanna (who left AH just before AH2 was released, Im sure she will be back.)

Now again........... BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD-
Gscholz I gotta say, I agree with you completely as to what the game was when it had a "code of honor" and what it has become since advertised on a large international scale. I also agree/hope that HTC probably didnt take into consideration that all these new players would have a more "Air Quake" mentallity & what affect that new mentality would have on the seasoned players who enjoyed the honorable play of days of old.

I dont see any quick or easy fixes, but you can count on me to be calling out hordes to undefended bases, rallying defense, switching countries to the underdog side, going truce busting &  posting threads like this that get people talking about how to improve the game.


Anton/A_Clown
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 01:07:41 AM by anton »

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2004, 01:41:02 AM »
Quote
Gscholz: This game is completely ghey now. No one fights without massive numerical advantage. Everyone are cowards.

The focus on the "war" and not air combat is ruining gameplay, and it has ALWAYS been clear that players are unable to police their own behaviour. The only way is through the game itself.


 The focus on the war, is inevitable. It's a natural result of the MA numbers increasing to hundreds. It's the rise of "nationalism" in the MA .



Quote
Soda:My solution, as I posted in the gameplay forum, ram all the furball/fly-till-you-die group together and give them what they want, the instant action with no death consequences area. It's the dueling arena with "scoring" I guess, either that or an isolated area of the map. That concentrates all the like minds and should provide constant action. They can never really be happy flying against guys who may try to stay alive long enough to accomplish something (ie,players who choose not to engage because they have other plans/ideas/goals).


 I think that is a temporary solution at best. In other words, it is isolating certain section of gameplay from the other, which is in fact admitting that there's no real solution for the things we are put up against. However, I do not believe that to be true.

 Instead of taking 'furballers' and 'strat guys' granted, as irreconcilable foes, we must try to find a solution that takes both sides into account to form a consolidated type of gameplay - where both types of people have significant roles at the same area.

 

Quote
Gscholz:Those are good sentiments, but nothing to do with reality. The reality is that the old players are no longer the core of AH, and their most effective way of community policing has been taken away: ch1. The old guys are leaving in frustration while the new guys grow in numbers. I hardly ever see a familiar handle in the MA these days, and when I do it's just one or two, among hundreds of anonymous new guys. And when people feel anonymous there is no community spirit.

What AH once was, is no longer. What AH is now is a gem of a game that is woefully unprotected against the reality of massively multiplayer game mentality. The same problems that every other multiplayer game has had to deal with.


 It is agreed, that the "vets" are no longer what they used to be.

 However, that itself, is not a bad thing. "Vets" are certain sections of players who have long experiences of the game, who felt that they had a certain privilege and pride in accordance with the game. These are the guys who know HT and Pyro personally, who flew in the old WB and AH Betas, and the guys who used to be most vocal about what is right or wrong.  

 When the MA was "Smallville", these "Vets" were the opinion leaders who influenced the community and acted as a moral guide to what is and is not acceptable, in the MA. Often in the small, limited combat of the old MA, their skills and experience would prove as a valuable asset to a certain side. They were treated with high respect, and their opinions mattered.

 They were like the nobles of the Medieval ages. The most powerful, most skilled guys in combat. They were heard, and they were privileged(at least in opinions and ideas).

 Now, in the bustling new MA, the vets have lost their influential status totally - both in the community, and in combat. Not many people even know them.

 They are a shadow of what they used to be, and their own skill level don't mean squat against large numbers of people.

 Most vets, are hurt and frustrated by the idea that the MA isn't what it used to be. They usually fail to understand that this is a new age, new era of AH. Their ideas usually wish to pull the MA back into the days when the "vets" meant something - which is essentially a retro-idea. The old days aren't the "gem". They are just old days. It's time to try and polish a new "gem".

 The new MA, bustling with hundreds of people, is here to stay. Vets should get the picture, that they aren't anything special anymore.

 However, in the absence of the vets and their gameplay styles, came  total confusion.

 The nature of the MA will not allow a handful of people voicing their opinions to mold and shape the game into what they want. Nobody listens to such things. The only thing that can shape up the MA into an organized form of combat(where huge numbers of people are more or less efficiently used to create an all-round battlefield of various situations, instead of crammed up into a single horde), is the system - which enforces the people as an absolute power.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2004, 01:53:58 AM »
People follow the principle of modern tactics in the sense that they acknowledge the importance of numbers. However, their actions are incredbily unorganized. The "horde", is the manifestation of the contradiction between organized mentality and unorganized action.

 Since there is no organization or chain of command in the MA, people follow the individual code of survival - they avoid risks, and follow the opportunities. The "horde", is like a raving locust cloud in which a single element is very weak, but the whole group is almost invincible.

 The behavior of the horde is almost animalistic in nature. One or two people find a good opportunity to "feed"(easy kills). And then, one by one, seeing that there is "food" there, other people flock and group to that place.

 In the absence of the old way of air combat that used to exist, no new structure in MA strategy has formed yet. Thus, instead of acting like how military operations would, people act like locusts. There's nobody who takes charge and makes decisions, so everybody makes their own decisions, which aims for the same thing "feed, and survive"(get kills, don't die).

 Why is there a need for "structure"?

 In the old MA, people really didn't care about the "War" anyway, so no such structure was needed in the first place. There were only few people, who just liked air combat.

 However, in the new MA, the numbers have increased more than two-fold, and individual mentality is set upon "nationalism". The only thing that can utilize the huge MA numbers to create something else than the animalistic horde, is by giving them a structure of battle that (at least remotely) resembles military organization.

 Instead of letting the individuals group up to form a locust swarm, structure all those numbers to form a Military.

 ....

 The "horde" is a result of "freedom of choice" that is focused on "survival", which is accelerated by "lack of organization".

 Only thing that can stop the creation of the horde, is to introduce at least some kind of basic structure into the MA.

 Tilt mentioned my ideas might be right for the ToD, but I disagree. I consider the ToD as something more of an "reenactment" than a true-blue game. It is essentially role-playing, and the neither the control of the war, nor the outcome of the war, is in our hands.

 However, the MA is different. There's no reason that  the MA cannot start to resemble the real war more closely. My ideas, were intended for the MA. Unlike the "reenactment" of the ToD, in the MA, the people will make their own choices in who wins the war in what manner. However, the MA, should have its own form of basic structure as a military force.

 Since no individual has the power and authority to organize and command people, it is only fitting that the system should take the place.

 That is why I support the idea of "Airforces".



 Example of the "Airforce"

* the "1st Rook Airforce", stationed at the 'Knit front'

* the "2nd Rook Airforce", stationed at the 'Bish front'

* Essentially, the territory of a single country, is divided by two different airforces each with its own pilots, own bases, own TGs.

* Players of the 1st RA will not be able to use TGs, VHs and Airfields belonging to the 2nd RA.

* the 1st and 2nd RAs work independantly. They have their responsibilities to push towards a certain front only.

* Pilots of the 1st RA, will not be able to arbitrarily transfer to the 2nd RA, and vice versa.

* Pilots wanting a transfer, will have to find a pilot of the other RA, to swap places.

* The system will calculate how fast each Rook Airforce is advancing or retreating. Like may local K/D factor can be used into calculation.

* If a certain Airforce is constanly losing, it will make up new openings to receive "reinforcements" that transferred from the other Airforce. For instance, the system will announce: "10 more pilots are needed at the 2nd AF."



 This is a very simple idea which can prove to be incredibly effective. People are stationed to a certain front by the system, and not allowed to take off in the fields belonging to the other Airforce.

 In effect, instead of making more countries, it remains 3 countries, but uses total six independant airforces. Splitting the numbers into fronts. The two airforces in a country, work for the smae country but operate independantly.

 If there are 600 people in the MA, each side with 200, each front will be popluated with limited 100 pilots, fight another 100 pilots of the opposing side. It spreads the 600 people into two fronts for each country.

 Any "horde" created in this environment, will remain local - only at that front. And since for the opposing side, the people stationed at that AF are not allowed to abandon their posts. They must stop enemy horde. Like, if the 1st RA stationed at the Knit front meets the 2nd KA, and the 1st RA forms a horde.. then pilots of the 2nd KA have a duty to protect that front. They are not allowed to just pack up an leave for easy kills. So, the 2nd KA will be forced to stop the 1st RA with any means possible.

 So, the "horde" in this new system will be 1/6th of its size in the current MA, and operating only at a certain front, which will face about the same number of enemies.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 02:21:26 AM by Kweassa »

Offline KurtVW

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« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2004, 01:59:00 AM »
Invincible?

Nah, I vinced 'em ... its all ok now.

No, really.. I dropped the whole hoard..  They weren't so tough.. I split 'em off one by one and killed em..

SO anywho, its safe to come back now... so if you've been crying for 3 months, come on back... Ol' Kurt fixed it for ya'll...

So can we quit crying like 4 month old's and enjoy the squealing GAME NOW??!!!

Jeeepers... All I want is a kill with no whine!  Are you still out there?

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2004, 04:44:41 AM »
Its TOD Kweassa..........

It may or may not be the format HTC uses but it is not free game play..................  although the MA is not as free a form of free game play it used to be.

We can all urge HTC to do this or do that........ and some of it may or may not or only partly happen..........

but really if we want the horde effectiveness diminished (and we aint never gonna totally eliminate it)........we cannot wait and hope upon some modification to be a magic fix..................... we have to influence the Horde mentality at its base........

and we can........

we encourage.........

we motivate.............

we give as well as take............

we show its fun being "nice" soldiers.............
Ludere Vincere

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2004, 09:14:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by anton
I can think of 3 Females that have been playing AH longer than me (goin on yr 4) Flossy, Silat

 


Silat is not a female,  his name is Lew and he lives in Oregon.

just to clear things up :)
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC