Author Topic: This is The End  (Read 3275 times)

Offline DoKGonZo

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This is The End
« on: September 20, 2004, 12:37:25 AM »
To borrow a few lines from Jim Morrison's classic song of the same title:

| This is the end
 | ...
 | Of our elaborate plans, the end
 | Of everything that stands, the end
 | No safety or surprise, the end
 | ...


What's the point?

Well, I was looking forward to usual Sunday night ENY-fest ... I actually got a kick out flying the 51B and La-5. And it was the one night when I figured there'd be a respite from the "non-existant" Bish-Knit truce which has been in effect all week (which of course isn't really happening, it's just that their battles are so intense and only happen below radar so they don't show up on bar-dar ... and the sun was in your eyes when you looked at the map ... yeah, that's the ticket).

So anyway as the Bish were hitting the Western bases, the Knits drooled into A12 with about 8 flights of B17's on the deck and the usual vultch-craft. There were maybe 2 big red dar-bars anywhere else on the map but ganging up on Rooks. I was over A12 in a D9 when it fell and for a moment I actually considered doing a pork-n-auger job on their just-captured barracks.

And it was at that moment I knew I was done with flying AH2 in the MA for a while. Maybe a long, long while. I flew back to base, landed, said "bye" to my squadies, and logged off.

I simply refuse to stoop to the level of play and behavior that dominates the MA. And I have no interest in playing with people who conduct themselves this way.

Seeing people praise ENY for making the MA "fair" in one breath and then in the next finding a way to play around it and do the exact same thing they whined about to get ENY implemented to "fix the Rooks" is just pathetic. It's selfish and, worse still, it's dishonest. And dishonesty really pisses me off.

Many people claimed they wanted "balance" when all they really wanted is to stop losing. Even if they only lost one night a week. Sad. Very sad.


Rangoon will still be run ... I'm hoping the registration form is up this week. There's a site dedicated to AVG stuff I want to try to cross-promote the event with too. But the MA is no fun for me now. Not because of ENY - but because of the ways some people feel they need to win. The ENY debate just brought some of the hypocrisy to the fore. And when it gets to the point that I enjoy talking about AH in the BBS more than actually flying AH, then it's obviously time to stop.

And it's a shame, because I missed it. When I fired up AH2 a couple months ago, and launched a D9 offline it was like coming home. The graphics, the flight model, everything - being able to flick that bird over and make it dance was wonderous. Taking up a P51, giving it some speed, and then pointing it into a chandelle turn like an IRL car on the high banking - feeling the wings catch and take a bite out of the air as it carved the turn - just great. The new skins for the P40's and other mid-war planes are just so gorgeous, the sound packs are just amazing ... it is an incredible technical achievement by all concerned.

Oh well ...

| Can you picture what will be
 | So limitless and free


Indeed.

     -DoK

Offline Gixer

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This is The End
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2004, 12:41:57 AM »
I haven't really followed all these posts about eny but could someone please tell me what the dreaded "ENY-fest" is?




...-Gixer

Offline eagl

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This is The End
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2004, 12:58:03 AM »
That's too bad :(

I've had some fun recently deliberately avoiding mass gaggles, but unfortunately the high fuel burn multiplier heavily penalizes anyone who doesn't want to blindly follow the mass gaggle around.  If you don't want to join the horde, your choice of plane is pretty sharply limited to long-endurance rides like the P-51 because the fuel just doesn't last long enough to find fights away from the horde in most planes, and still have enough to RTB.

I have no firm facts or stats that prove the high fuel burn encourages the horde mentality, but I personally tried to learn a few other planes like the typhoon and it just doesn't have enough gas to do anything except join the furball or make one or two jabo passes at an abandoned field and then fly home on fumes.  The days of the 4-ship of wingmen roaming the area finding small to medium sized fights is long gone, replaced by a near-hysterical push to the nearest field hoping for some quick kills.  It seemed like my efforts to break away from that mentality was foiled by simply running out of gas before anything interesting happened, unless I took a P-51 with drop tanks.

But I realize there is a specific reason for the high fuel burn multiplier, and I don't know which is the worse evil.

Sure wish you'd give it another try in a few days though.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline rpm

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This is The End
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2004, 04:38:30 AM »
So to sum it up Dok, YOU have to be on the winning horde side or you get mad and quit. :rolleyes:

Buh-bye
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline mars01

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This is The End
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2004, 05:14:55 AM »
Quote
So anyway as the Bish were hitting the Western bases, the Knits drooled into A12 with about 8 flights of B17's on the deck and the usual vultch-craft. There were maybe 2 big red dar-bars anywhere else on the map but ganging up on Rooks.

...

And it was at that moment I knew I was done with flying AH2 in the MA for a while. Maybe a long, long while. I flew back to base, landed, said "bye" to my squadies, and logged off.
LOL so now you have had a taste of what it is like to be a Bish or Knight over these past several months and you quit, interesting.

The Rooks have had it easy, with the numbers etc.  Most of the Knights and Bish have gotten used to being overwhelmed and adjusted instead of quitting, even you yourself said
Quote
I actually got a kick out flying the 51B and La-5.
but yet you lost a base, so you quit.  Something doesn't add up.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 05:22:57 AM by mars01 »

Offline moot

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This is The End
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2004, 05:27:53 AM »
hit sprites.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Westy

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This is The End
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2004, 08:33:21 AM »
The "flavour" and "atmosphere" of the MA did me in a year ago.  I could't imagine how much it could have gotten worse but from your description DoK it certainly did.  


"Rangoon will still be run..."

THANK you DoK (and all those folks helping)



In the meantime I continue to hang about these parts for word (any) on "TOD"
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 08:36:31 AM by Westy »

Offline phookat

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Re: This is The End
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2004, 08:42:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I simply refuse to stoop to the level of play and behavior that dominates the MA. And I have no interest in playing with people who conduct themselves this way.


Well it's too bad that people do that kind of stuff, in any country.  But it's always going to happen in an MA.  They'll fly how they want, but you can still have fun flying the way you want.  Of course it means you won't get tons of kills like the vultchers, and you won't pork as much as the barfers.

Offline DoKGonZo

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This is The End
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2004, 09:19:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm371
So to sum it up Dok, YOU have to be on the winning horde side or you get mad and quit. :rolleyes:

Buh-bye


No, its this kind of selfish, purile, narrow-minded attitude that I don't wish to be bother with.

I didn't like ENY, but spent a lot of time in the BBS talking through ways to tune it to be fair. On Sundays, from my secret identity, I'd tell Rooks to find ways to have fun with the planes they were forced to fly. If it fixed Horde Warrior, it was worth a shot.

But when I see the arena has balanced numbers - or even when Rooks are outnumbered - and still the Bish/Knits insist on this "imaginary" truce (which I accept isn't official, but it's still happening and still being condoned), at that point it's clear that there's a different definition of "balance" that you want. If you wanted parity of numbers, then when you got them there should have been fairly even distribution of numbers in the MA. But there wasn't. Not for over a week now.

You didn't want balance. You wanted the status quo of a year or so back.

Buh-bite me.

     -DoK

Offline Zanth

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This is The End
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2004, 09:21:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm371
So to sum it up Dok, YOU have to be on the winning horde side or you get mad and quit. :rolleyes:

Buh-bye


You pretty much hit the nail on the head I think.    Perspective can be so inconvenient at times.


edit to buck the trend and add some actual facts- just mine you want someone elses you go get em:

Country - Kills As - Kills Of
Bishop 0 52
Knight 120 0
Rook 0 68

Country - Killed As - Killed By
Bishop 0 38
Knight 81 0
Rook 0 43


edit again to add another - couldnt find DOk, Whels is in my squad and I remebered how to spell his name (for another example against this "everyone is against rooks" ignorance):

Country - Kills As - Kills Of
Bishop 0 345
Knight 618 0
Rook 0 273

Country - Killed As - Killed By
Bishop 0 51
Knight 67 0
Rook 0 16


edit  (last one)  found better numbers Tour 56 (this tour):

Knights:

Knights Killed 55311 Bishops - Bishops Killed 47515 Knights
Knights Killed 53143 Rooks  -  Rooks Killed 54526 Knights

Bishops:

Bishops Killed 47515 Knights - Knights Killed 55311 Bishops
Bishops Killed 40121 Rooks - Rooks Killed 47181 Bishops

"Facts are stubborn things"
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 10:14:58 AM by Zanth »

Offline DoKGonZo

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This is The End
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2004, 09:51:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
LOL so now you have had a taste of what it is like to be a Bish or Knight over these past several months and you quit, interesting.

The Rooks have had it easy, with the numbers etc.  Most of the Knights and Bish have gotten used to being overwhelmed and adjusted instead of quitting, even you yourself said but yet you lost a base, so you quit.  Something doesn't add up.


No ... what doesn't add up to you is you are looking at what I posted on too small a scale.


First, from what I observed at the times I flew (evenings, Pacific time) if you removed Sunday night's from the equation the rest of the week things were more or less balanced. And even if you factor in Sunday, Mon and Tue the Rooks kind of got ganged on to make up for Sunday's gains - and then things settled down. Rooks having a 5% bulge in numbers once in a while isn't being "overwhelmed" - that only happened Sunday nights and it could have been handled without ENY and without whining.

It was the hypocricy of people saying they wanted balance and, when given it, prove that wasn't what they wanted at all. What they wanted was HT to take away someone else's advantage under the guise of "restoring balance" to the MA.

And, for me at a personal level, well that makes the MA pretty intolerable. There are so many people working hard to make AH better - not just HTC. The guys like Fruda, Citabria, Waffle, Nopoop and so on who do awesome addons. The trainers, CM guys, and people who put together stats sites. And then you have this behavior of do whatever it takes so "I can get mine." That's one thing that does NOT add up.


Next, it wasn't the field going down that bothered me. It's how it was done - by truce, by lawn-boy B17's, and with very, very little precision. It was that the feeling of "why fight it, just do like they do" started to creep into my equation.

Fear to do base, unworthy things is valor.  --B. Jonson.

For me, at this point in my life, it's easier to just walk away. Ten years ago I'd have probably flipped people the finger and rammed B17's on the deck down your collective throats as only I could - and still can. But that won't solve anything. It'd be like clubbing retarded baby seals; too slow witted to even sense fear.


As for my inability to deal with bad odds ... puh-lease. I can remember nights in AW and WB when we had to just about relocate the entire country to our most rearward bases. Not even because of truces - but because the country I was in was just that small at the time. It was pointless to try to defend an extended front.


The reason this doesn't add up to you is you don't have 17 years of playing, observing, contributing, and designing this kind of game in your background. What I see and what you see are completely different.

    -DoK

Offline DoKGonZo

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This is The End
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2004, 10:04:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zanth
You pretty much hit the nail on the head I think.    Perspective can be so inconvenient at times.
...


No ... you missed by a mile and smacked your thumb and now it's a bloody pulp, the nail forever rended, the bone shattered - may as well amputate.

Those numbers mean verry little given the tactics in use. 5 flights of lawn-boy B17's is 15 deaths right there for, most likely, 0 kills in return. Knits probably gave away over 50 deaths just in bombers at A12 last night.

Next, look at the damn map. Count the bar-dar. Then look at the number of planes. That math is pretty easy.

And, again, it isn't even that this is happening that really bugged me. It's all the whelping for "restoring balance" which is being shown to be a big lie. Actions always speak louder than words.

I'll let your personal attack about "ignorance" slide in deference to the guys you fly with. This time.

    -DoK
« Last Edit: September 20, 2004, 10:07:23 AM by DoKGonZo »

Offline Furball

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This is The End
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2004, 10:41:12 AM »
I WAS HIGH OVER OUR AREBAES IN MAH L3T 190D9 AND TEH STUPID TARDS DACIED 2 BRNG B17S OVAR!1111! OMG WTF IS A B17?????!!!!111!!1 OMG WTF IT SHOTS BAK AT ME WH3N I DIEV ON IT?111!!!!??11!1 OMG WTF Y CANT THEY FLY LOW SO I CAN CHERY PIK THAM??!??!??!1!!! OMG LOL WUT IS THIS GMA COMNG 2!!!1!11!!!11!!11 OMG WTF LOL

I QUIT!!111111! OMG WTF
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Offline GScholz

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This is The End
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2004, 10:58:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Those are good sentiments, but nothing to do with reality. The reality is that the old players are no longer the core of AH, and their most effective way of community policing has been taken away: ch1. The old guys are leaving in frustration while the new guys grow in numbers. I hardly ever see a familiar handle in the MA these days, and when I do it's just one or two, among hundreds of anonymous new guys. And when people feel anonymous there is no community spirit.

What AH once was, is no longer. What AH is now is a gem of a game that is woefully unprotected against the reality of massively multiplayer game mentality. The same problems that every other multiplayer game has had to deal with.


DoKGonZo, I hope things get sorted out soon, but I think it will take a lot of time ... if ever. :(
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline flyingaround

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This is The End
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2004, 10:58:43 AM »
Wow!  Can't believe that using your "17 years" of perspective, you are quitting over ONE night of play.  That makes it at least appear that you are jumping the gun a wee bit.  IMHO you have flown such a limited time since returing to AH2 that don't have the understanding of the "big" picture as to what has been happening for the past 6 months.

Welcome to what the other sides have been experiencing for many months.  You now have an idea re. what all the complaining has been about, and you yourself got frustrated and didn't like it one bit.  It stands to reason that on Sun. nights the knits and bish focus on the rooks, as that is what they have HAD to do for quite a while.  Now picture not only huge buff formations doing low level bombing, but massive pork and auger missions both hitting the same base at the same time while waves of enemy gv's rolled in.  THAT is what Sun. nights have been like for non-rooks.  There were no fights that were not hugely unbalanced.  Hence HT stepping in and making some changes.

One point your off base on though.  There was no unwritten truce vs. the rook last night.  I flew a couple hours Sun. evening, and found most the big fights were vs. rooks (I am a knit) but that was due more to what bases were taken and their map location (i.e. closer fights) than anything else.  Looking at this tours stats, I have killed 247 bish, and 118 rooks.  Pretty clear who I pref. to attack.

Last night I fought both.  I helped retake Knit bases in the North of the map from the bish (a205 ect) AND capture rook fields (a241 etc).  I actually prefer fighting the bish over rook, as they in general will "fight" you, as opposed to rooks who you (in general of course) have to climb tons to meet co alt, then chase 'em around for them to fight you.  It never occured to me last night that it was Sunday night Rook horde night.  Never even gave it a thought, nor recall seeing anybody talk about it one bit on country chan.

I may not have your long term perspective (9yrs vs. your 17) but I have been playing AH much longer than you (2+yrs) and I do not see any huge massive change in game play.  There always has been large groups of buff missions attacking on the deck.  Always have been pork n' auger dweebs that ruin a good fight.  I feel that last night, you experienced a bad night in flying, and it's sad that you have decided to "take your toys and go home" based on such a limited time.  Heck, I consider your whole stint back on AH a limited time.  (two months maybe?)  

Weren't the sides fairly even last night?  I don't recall seeing a big enough side disparity of numbers that the ENY limiter would have had anything but a negligable affect on any country.  Several rook squads have changed countries in the past couple weeks, and it seems that balance is being restored, and the ENY limiter is no longer needed.  just my opinion there though.

Flame away, spout some creative way to try and make me look childish, or stupid, but in the end know that you sir, are the one acting like a crybaby, and it's too bad.  You have had a powerful impact on AH (at least the BBS) since you have returned, and it is too bad that you decided to give up on the community after such a short stay.  Know that I have nothing but respect for you as being one of the "legends" of the WW2 sim community, but your current behaviour doesn't jive with what I understood as your reputation.
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