Author Topic: This is The End  (Read 3467 times)

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2004, 03:57:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm371
Dok, I don't see anything about preventing a side imbalance. That was the whole point of HT implementing the ENY adjustment. How would you prevent 1 side from continually running roughshod thru the arena simply by using overwhelming numbers? You know, the problem AH suffered for more than 6 months on a daily basis (not just Sunday nights as Rooks like to claim).


Well, here's where I may have a fundamental difference of opinion with HT. I don't presume to speak for him, but I'm guessing from what I've read that he put in ENY because the arena wasn't auto-leveling as it usually has. That was his approach.

I think ENY can provide some barrier to The Horde but, as we've seen, it sure ain't foolproof (uh ... read that any way you like ... hehe). By leaving ENY in for captured fields only, that makes it harder for The Horde to steam roll as once they start taking ground they start being reduced to high-ENY ships - if they only took ground by shear weight of overall numbers. If you're retaking ground, you do so with the best planes - meaning you can kick the Horde out of your backyard easier when your reinforcements arrive. I think this is closer to what HT really wanted ... but, again, I'm guessing.


As for the rest, I'm more or less convinced that a lot of the bad behavior in the MA - including the reliance on numbers - is due to boredom and apathy. There's no need to learn special skills - like torpedo boming. The environment never really changes, so you get stuck in ruts of what you do each night. The fights usually end up right over a field so then it degrades into one side half in GV's and the other side hovering above them. Base capture is a pretty linear affair - and you can get away with really crappy execution and still pull it off. And recognition is all for the individual - there's nothing really driving people to demonstrate prowess as a team - and that too gets dull. Yadda, yadda, yadda ...


Now hold on to your seats for this next bit.


I have always maintained that online gamers - especially sim-gamers who must work within real phsyical constraints - are the most cunning bastards on the planet. If you leave these people with a small set of things to do, they'll spend their time optimizing to get this done as efficiently as possible - even if the end result is complete dweebery.

If you challenge them, though, they'll spend more time learning how to do new things, rather than how to do the same old things with the least amount of effort. From what I've seen running scenarios, I know that 90% of the player base is fully capable of either leading flights, getting 3:1 kill ratios, doing precision bombing, or all of the above. I can't tell you how many times in events I've had CO's tell me what I expect them to do to win  is "impossible" ... and a week later they do it.

We've each seen that whatever country we fly for is fully capable of coordinated, skillfully executed operations - be they base defense, base capture, whatever. And when you're doing those things the game is awesome - you post in the BBS the next morning about it, right? No horde was needed - or even thought about - you didn't need any more people.

So my theory is that if you provide more things to do and raise the complexity and/or difficulty of some of these tasks, reward achievement of these tasks for groups working together, then gameplay will revert to what we know it can be.

Shaking up the plane set once in a month is the same thing - when you don't have big level bombers and the uber-Jabo fighters - how do you get the job done? The tasks are the same, how you do them completely changes. Bombers need more escort, fighters are slower and turn better - a different kind of fighting. It provides variety - people will ***** and whine about any change, but watch how the play the game at the same time.

Hardening barracks reduces a common pork-based tactic - you want to hurt a base, do it as a group of 2 or 3. What's the difference? Well, 2 or 3 Tiffy's can do a hell of a lot more than just dive bomb. You don't have to run from the first fighter you see and head for the weeds. You don't have to make your 2.0 passes and then run away. This means CAP fighters can't go up alone either as 3 Tiffy's with any kind of skill will dice any solo plane.

Providing a lot of specialties to learn (torpedo bombing, nailing cities with an A-20, tank-busting, etc.) which MAKE A DIFFERENCE means newer players can master skills offline which make them valuable in the MA instead of cannon fodder. Right now you can solve a world of air-to-ground problems with a B17 at 500 feet. It lets new players feel like they're accomplishing something and part of something - and then they can move on to other things.

In other words, treat The Horde as an effect rather than a cause. Put in some safeguards to limit it's effectiveness, but my belief if that if you focus on improving the overall quality and diversity of the MA then the players will follow suit.

I know this isn't what a lot of you expect to hear from me.

    -DoK

Offline Charon

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« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2004, 04:40:07 PM »
I agree with your positions Dok, relative to the hard core sim community of AW/early WB days, but what about those that come here with more of a console gaming mindset? There was a lot of growth recently by people who might not even be able to list the allied vs. axis countries, or know a FW from a MC 205. Their experience is with Counterstrike or Navy Seals, and now this flying game.

Quote
As for the rest, I'm more or less convinced that a lot of the bad behavior in the MA - including the reliance on numbers - is due to boredom and apathy.


I don't think a lot of that type of player are bored or apathetic. People who are hard core simmers for many years  - yes, increasingly myself included. The majority, perhaps not. Look at the percentage of people who play arcade style consoles vs. hard core sims. Look at excellent games like Battlezone 1 (probably the best combination of action and strategy ever fielded, IMO) that was neutered of its complications for BZ2. Or Deus Ex that became Deus Lite 2 console port.

I consider myself a simmer type but even something like Falcon 4 patch 12 edition is even beyond my personal level of sim interest. I’m sure there are Falcon 4 players who can’t imagine why, given my interest in military aviation, I wouldn’t gobble it up and instead play this “simple” WW2 game.

I would love to have variety, complicated real strat using already developed tools (factories, zones, roads, truck convoys, heavy bombers in heavy bomber roles, dive bombers in dive bomber roles, torpedo bombers…etc.) The type of things that would spread the action out and offer a variety of engagements, and there have been many potential solutions offered. Anything other than a band aid approach to a “broken” gameplay format when you get these numbers and a high percentage of “non enthusiasts” in the player base. But again, broken is relative. I don’t think it’s particularly broken for the masses. I imagine fixing it would unleash a ****storm of biblical proportions, so you wonder how much interest there would really be in doing the programming. On a side note, it would be nice to see HT and Pyro playing (and I mean really playing, not testing) in the arena more often, even at the cost of programming time.

Charon
« Last Edit: September 21, 2004, 04:44:49 PM by Charon »

Offline humble

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« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2004, 05:01:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
And you would know about that phrase better than anyone, except in your case it's preceded by "Bend over."

     -DoK


LOL...

Guess you skipped common sense in life...

I've flown on all sides and not a single thing you posted has any merit...just a whine cloaked in selfrighteous BS...

I don't think that the current system is perfect in anyway but it's a step in the right direction. The ENY is a minor factor in the gameplay equation...plenty of quality rides for all mission profiles in the 30+ ENY...as for low level bombing...as I stated you (the ROOKS) invented the tactic (and utilize more than the other two "countries" combined). As for "gangbangs"...yes it happens but the numbers speakfor themselfs...overall kills are pretty even.

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Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2004, 05:06:31 PM »
Gamers thrive on achievement, competition, mastery of skills, and recognition. Regardless of the format. All those things are in AH2, but many of them are hidden, not accessable, or just skewed enough to be counterproductive.

The only achievment openly recognized is the multi-kill mission ("wtg"). The minimum skill needed to master for that is the vultch. The only real competition for vultch kills is your own team-mates, or an enemy you can't out-number.

That's how I think I'd see AH2 if I was a new player, and the behavior in the MA kind of follows.

I think a lot of newer or non-simmers don't think AH2 is broken because (a) they get their kill fix (they can "win"), and (b) they don't know how much better the game can be if you work at it a little.

     -DoK

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2004, 05:07:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
LOL...

Guess you skipped common sense in life...

...


FOAD

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2004, 05:40:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Gamers thrive on achievement, competition, mastery of skills, and recognition. Regardless of the format. All those things are in AH2, but many of them are hidden, not accessable, or just skewed enough to be counterproductive.

The only achievment openly recognized is the multi-kill mission ("wtg"). The minimum skill needed to master for that is the vultch. The only real competition for vultch kills is your own team-mates, or an enemy you can't out-number.

That's how I think I'd see AH2 if I was a new player, and the behavior in the MA kind of follows.

I think a lot of newer or non-simmers don't think AH2 is broken because (a) they get their kill fix (they can "win"), and (b) they don't know how much better the game can be if you work at it a little.

     -DoK


As much as it pains me to admit it .... you do see an element of that in the CT, as well. It'll generally happen during the dead hours when a squadron gets together and comes to the conclusion that milking the CT map is actually so much easier than doing it in the MA (since the worst possible scenario for them to encounter may be one lone opponent and that'll only last as long as that player's stubborn streak).

So it appears to me that some players don't even need the buffer brag message to become the dregs. Then again, if it's part of the game design then perhaps they can't be refered to as such. Perhaps the lowest common denominator is the largest common denominator, after all. Can't escape it via anything short of a tightly regimented scenario.

I anticipate the new crop of CT staffers will stay on top of whether or not the map got porked overnight and fix it before CT primetime. It's hard enough to get new players there when everything is running exactly the way it should.  ;)

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2004, 06:43:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
... So it appears to me that some players don't even need the buffer brag message to become the dregs. ...


See, the brag messages don't have to detract either.

Consider the suggestion I had above. It just says "A member of the XXX squadron landed 1 kill and 2 assists in a Fw190-A5." Now the "wtg"s are for the squad.

Next, if that squad is in the top 10 in one of a number of stats (kills/death, kills/sorties, total base captures, etc.), add a line for each, such as: "The XXX squadron now ranks 3rd in kill/death with 2.34:1.".

One of the things from old AW which worked was that the first thing you saw when you arrived was who won last campaign for fighter, bomber, and squadron. You had people flying missions during peak hours (@ $12/hr!) to get that last point needed to win. Right now this stuff isn't very visible - we have much better stats, but it's not presented in a way which encourages gameplay.

So go that next step and add the MotD when you enter the game of the winners from last campaign in a number of categories. Give people something to achieve, compete for, other than the "me" oriented "wtg". Gamers - regardless of genre - want to be on that leader board. Even just once.

The tools are all there, they just need to be used different or better. Free-form arenas are tough to make work - but they can work. I think you need to know up front what values and goals you want to hold high for people to strive for, and you have to be prepared to keep constantly adjusting things - players adapt just so fast.

      -DoK

Offline Misfit

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« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2004, 06:54:38 PM »
Ya know the Man be making some since here!
SING ON BROTHER!
Can he get an AMEN?

AAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEE ENNNNNNN!:D

Offline bustr

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« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2004, 07:23:07 PM »
Quoted from -DoK-

I think you need to know up front what values and goals you want to hold high for people to strive for, and you have to be prepared to keep constantly adjusting things - players adapt just so fast.

DoK you just gonna hold them high up there to look at? Gonna do anything with them? Gotta admit they look great blowing in the breeze. You are talking molding the AH culture in a positive direction. :)  The maps and stratigy thingys are the simple stuff. How are you going to lead the hearts and minds of the newbies to enjoy the challenging higher levels of this game while helping them to develop their skill sets?

Ya know I'm one of those "Ol Farts" that likes to see a business plan before I write the cheque.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline NoBaddy

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« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2004, 09:10:18 PM »
While I don't see any flaws with Dok's suggestions (on the surface anyway :)), I do believe there is one simple change that could greatly impact balance in the MA. Simply do away with the perk reward for resets.

In the real world, "hording" (Chinese Air Farce tactics) often is the best tactical move. In a game, it can become really tedious for those on the receiving end, when it continues for long periods. In AH, people are rewarded for this behavior....why shouldn't they make every effort to continue it?? Actually, the reset bonus is the biggest fundemental difference I see in the AH game system and the AW game system.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2004, 09:47:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr
DoK you just gonna hold them high up there to look at? Gonna do anything with them? Gotta admit they look great blowing in the breeze. You are talking molding the AH culture in a positive direction. :)  The maps and stratigy thingys are the simple stuff. How are you going to lead the hearts and minds of the newbies to enjoy the challenging higher levels of this game while helping them to develop their skill sets?
 [/B]


I'm going to try to influence things the only way I know I can more or less independantly. By designing and running the Rangoon '42 scenario.

Show players what the game is capable of and they're less likely to settle for less. Show them that they can do stuff they maybe thought impossible in the MA and they're more willing to explore what the game has to offer. Get players used to flying as a team instead of as loners and they're more apt to do the same in the MA.

When I said players were bored I didn't mean the game is boring - I meant they had learned all they needed to get enough success to satisfy them, and now they just want their fix for the lowest cost. Scenarios break that barrier - you have to fly stuff you may not like into situations which often ... well ... suck. And you have people counting on you to do your job. Stress, hard work, inconvenience ... but lots of fun and you learn a ton.


Beyond that I'm not sure what you want of me. I don't have the "keys to the castle" ... it's HT's game and it's his company. I know from working with him in the past that our ideas diverge as much as they converge so I expect at least half of what I said he completely disagrees with. The days when I could be online flying 5 or 6 hours a night are long since past.

    -DoK

Offline roofer

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« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2004, 12:47:07 PM »
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the days I could be online flying 5 or 6 hours a night are long since past.


agreed. and you make very good points dok, keep up the great work.

if aces ever fixes this current mess, maybe i'll come and fly again.

[clicking to play WWII online]

Offline bustr

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« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2004, 02:00:19 PM »
Dok,

Sorry your answer is all that anyone who truely cares about this game can do. I've been reading this BB for a year now, the members of it with some exceptions fall prey to feeling powerless in the face of the monumental effort that is needed to be the pathfinder for the new generation.

Dok, you know they are looking to you for that leadership. You have done this many times before. You have my vote on making an impact on the current culture.

P.S.

I've been in the Combat Theater recently. You still get saluted, allowed to up coalt before being engaged, and allowed to belly land by your protaganist after he shoots out your engine. Keep thinking I'm back in AW. Maybe send Arlo a few of those pesky MA hoard dweebs to learn how gentelmen make the game fun. Oh, yeah and they drink a better brand of scotch on the way to some great fights.;)
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline 4510

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« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2004, 10:16:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
That's too bad :(

I've had some fun recently deliberately avoiding mass gaggles, but unfortunately the high fuel burn multiplier heavily penalizes anyone  



I second the high fuel burn thoughts.  I had to use a BF110 w/DTs to avoid the hordes last night.  Went back yard and picked off some Perk Milkers hitting factories behind their own lines and then flew home.  9 Sectors round trip.... but used the DTs, full tanks, and the E6B window to monitor my range status etc.  

One thing that might help... is do your hunting at lower RPM and Manifold pressures.   You can travel say 50-70mph slower... and save a bucket load of gas.....

Offline 4510

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« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2004, 10:31:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zanth
I don't know what it may look like, feel like, or seem like - but here is the way it really is (current as of about an hour ago for this tour)  Here are the facts, and facts don't lie:

The Bishops have 87895 (29%) kills and have been killed 102725 (34%) times against all countries.

The Bishops have 47709 kills (54%) and have been killed 55471 (54%) times against the Knights.
The Bishops have 40181 kills (45%) and have been killed 47249 (46%) times against the Rooks.



The Knights have 108849 (36%) kills and have been killed 102476 (34%) times against all countries.

The Knights have 53373 (49%) kills and have been killed 54754 (53%) times against the Rooks.
The Knights have 55473 (51%) kills and have been killed 47716 (47%) times against the Bishops.



The Rooks have 102015 (34%) kills and have been killed 93562 (31%) times against all countries.

The Rooks have 47250 (46%) kills and have been killed 40183 (43%) times against the Bishops.
The Rooks have 54761 (54%) kills and have been killed 53376 (57%) times against the Knights.


All countries have 298775 kills and have been killed 298775 times against all countries.



These are hard for my old eyes to read and old mind to comprehend...

Are you saying the Rooks (as a country) are the only ones with a  positive K/D?   If so I'm digging it !