Author Topic: 190A/F boosts (Read 3345 times)

GODO · « **on:** September 20, 2004, 12:17:07 PM »

By summer 44, every BMW801D2 powered 190s (A5,A6,A7,A8/F8) were cleared for 1.58/1.65 ata with 10/15mins continuous usage time limit respectively and 5 mins to cold down.

By this time, a new system was tested to increase that time limit for jabos: C3 injection. This system was initially applied to jabos and then inmediately added to 190A8 fighters also. With C3 injection the engine remains "cold" while sacrifying a lot of fuel in the process. A new fuel tank was added to A8s and F8s to compensate the extra C3 consumption by 8 C3-injection minutes (our current aux tank). So, for 190A8/F8 using C3 injection, the limit would not be on temperature increase (as it is currently modeled), but remakable range decrease.

I've found this information in several web sources, but none of them point to any official document backing it up (nor the opposite).

Wotan · « **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2004, 12:34:29 PM »

In this thread Niklas wrote:

Quote

It´s basically the same system, but was used first with the lower blower stage only for Jabos. The high altitude gear is more difficult because the air is more compressed, thus hotter. On 20.01.44 BMW cleared the usage for the high blower stage too, for all FW190. It still took a while until it was used in both stages however.

10 minutes seem to refer to the high blower stage btw, for the low blower stage a note from the A1-A8 handbook Feb.44 (still mentioning only the first blower stage) is speaking about unlimited usage as long as an emergency case happens. Fuel consumption was high, 840l/h ....

niklas

C3 injection as at first limited on the F to the lower blower stage only (unlimted; as long as the emergency lasted) .

Niklas states the 10 min limit was only for the high blower stage.

Yes fuel consumption was high and would have been more a factor in limiting usage rather then the temp cutoff used in AH2.

GODO · « **Reply #2 on:** September 20, 2004, 01:31:00 PM »

Wotan, the limitations described by Niklas are for Feb 44, as far as I know, 801D2 was not cleared for 1.58/1.65 in any plane but 190A8 by that date (the very early 190A8s). By mid 44 801D2 was cleared for 1.58/1.65 for any 190A, meanwhile 190A8 and F8 may enjoy unlimited (by temperature) wep time. A8/F8 may still use the common wep with 10 mins limit if C3 injection was not switched on.

Current AH2 190A8 consumes 185 GPH on WEP (x1 multiplier). 190A8 with C3 injection ON would consume about 221 GPH with unlimited wep time (while you have fuel left).

Wotan · « **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2004, 02:29:38 PM »

Niklas mentions that it took sometime before it was used in both stages. If he still reads this forum maybe he will clarify.

Crumpp · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2004, 10:05:01 PM »

The FW-190A8 was cleared for 1.58ata/1.65ata Without C3 "Emergency Power" for 10 minutes and only in "rated" engines. "Rated" engines were new engines. "De-rated" engines were rebuilds from combat weary "rated" motors and were not cleared for the added boost.

With C3 "emergency power" it limit was "as long as the emergency lasts but cautions to "watch your oil tempature".

Before the FW-190A8 Jagd-einsatz's were limited to:

Emergency Power 1.42ata@2700U/min for 3 minutes

for boost.

C3 "emergency power" first appeared in the FW-190A5 for 1.58ata and could only be used at below 1 Km in height.

There is not much evidence the 115 liter was used very much by the fighter units even after C3 "emergency power" was rated to FTH in the second supercharger gear.

C3 "emergency power" was not all that popular with the JG's as it consumed 70 liters/5 min when being used.

Source - Flugzueg-Handbuch

The jagd-einsatz's motors were already cleared for the same boost rating with a similar amount of time at WEP over the combat box. I will confirm this with a JG2 veteran.

Crumpp

GODO · « **Reply #5 on:** September 21, 2004, 02:14:52 AM »

Crumpp, as far as I know, C3 injection was not serialized for 190A5 jabos. On the other hand, by mid 44 all 801D2 equipped 190s were cleared and adjusted for 1.58/1.65, also 190A5s, but still without C3 injection except for A8/F8. The aux fuel tank would add about 8 mins of wep with C3 injection at the cost of 80lb (empty weight of the aux tank). Certainly 190A8 pilots can use these extra 8 mins to climb to combat alt and be sure to enter into combat with aux tank empty and "fresh" engines.

Crumpp · « **Reply #6 on:** September 21, 2004, 05:53:51 AM »

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The aux fuel tank would add about 8 mins of wep with C3 injection at the cost of 80lb (empty weight of the aux tank).

Exactly. It only represents about 7.5 minutes of wep. Depending on the target C3 "emergency boost" could represent an increase in available wep time, the same, or decrease in the time available. The Jagers could already use the same boost.

Problem is it added over 240lbs to the A/C when full on take off. Late '44 the Luftwaffe found itself increasingly outnumbered and frequently bounced on take off or shortly thereafter.

In fact that became the 8th FG tactics. They knew the bombers route and the LW airfields along it. The Mustangs would range ahead and try to hit the LW dayfighters before they climbed to altitude and were formed up.

Facts are the 115 liter tank was an available option. It should be in AH as well.

Crumpp

Crumpp · « **Reply #7 on:** September 21, 2004, 06:31:51 AM »

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Crumpp, as far as I know, C3 injection was not serialized for 190A5 jabos.

C3 "emergency boost" first appears as an option for jabo-einsatz's in the FW-190A5 Flugzeug-Handbuch. Jagd-einsatz's are limited to 1.42ata @ 2700U/min for 3 minutes AFAIK.

Crumpp

GODO · « **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2004, 11:43:58 AM »

Crumpp, in A8s, C3 injection was controled by a separate switch in the frontal Instrument panel. Emergency/takeoff, climb/combat, normal and off power settings were adjusted by the throttle handle. You can be running in "emergency" power setting while having the C3 injection turned off. What you call "C3 emergency boost" for 190A5 jabos is that "C3 injection cooling system" serialized in A8s?

Crumpp · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2004, 02:26:10 PM »

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What you call "C3 emergency boost" for 190A5 jabos is that "C3 injection cooling system" serialized in A8s?

Yes. The C3 "emergency power" was serialized in the FW-190A5 and used throughout the FW-190 production in JABO-einsatz's. Jabo's were authorized to advance the manifold pressure to 1.58ata and then engage the system below 1 Km.

C3 "emergency power" is a deceptive term. The actual C3 "emergency power" system did nothing to raise the manifold pressure of the engine, it simply cooled the heads.

The FW-190A8 was authorized to use 1.58ata/1.65ata on "rated" motors only in Jagd-einsatz's without C3 "emergency power" being installed. These are identified by a small yellow circle marking on the cowl. The time limit was 10 minutes.

During the production of the FW-190A8 the C3 "emergency power" was authorized for use ABOVE 1 km in height. Hence the 115 liter aux tank began to be included in delivery of the plane for all Jagd-einsatz's and Jabo-einsatz's. The mounting bracket was serialized and included in all FW-190's as well. I suspect C3 "emergency power" was also serialized.

The 115 liter tank was still an Optional piece of equipment, could be removed easily and was not necessary to use C3 "emergency power". It was held in place by quick release bands, plugs into the wiring harness, connected to the fuel system by a quick disconnect T-block valve, with the fuel pump and wiring contained in the lid of the tank. The filler plate was removed with 2 screws and the filler hose/vent line popped right out and remained attached to the filler plate. A blank plate would be inserted. The whole tank slide out the circular hatch in the bottom of the fuselage. It's presence is noted by the yellow triangular C3 sticker next to the fill port above the cargo hatch. This sticker's nomenclature when applied is the "Auxillery Tank Present" warning label. This alerted the ground crews the tank was in use and prevented them from filling it with the wrong liquid. It also alerted them to extra preventive procautions when filling the O2 tanks. Gas fumes and O2 don't mix.

In AH the 115 tank should be an option in the hanger for the FW-190A8.

Crumpp

Wotan · « **Reply #10 on:** September 21, 2004, 02:41:36 PM »

C3 wasn't serialized on the A5. It was tested on the A5 and serialized in '44 on the A8. Its been posted before on this forum, at LEMB, at AAW, etc...

C3 cooled the charge through evaportion, not necessarily the cylinder heads.

If butch or Hohun are around maybe they will provide clearification.

Wotan · « **Reply #11 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:02:17 PM »

I think the issue is with your definition of "serialized".

The A5's that had "C3 injection" were limited like the F8s to under 1km. As I quoted Niklas above C3 injection was fist limited to the lower blower stage. It wasn't cleared for both stages until '44 and at that time it became "standard" or "serialized" first in the A8. Once cleared for both stages for all 190A/F's it took some time before it was used.

Wotan · « **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:15:45 PM »

One more thing...

Godo,

I didnt read your original post carefully enough.

C3 injection was tested in early '43 on A5's (jabos as Crumpp states but I dont think it could be considered "serialized" at this time) and was limted to the lower blower stage (under 1km) for jabos..

In '44 it was cleared for the both blower stages for all 190A/Fs. At this time it was serialized first in the A8.

I think that is an accurate answer to your question.

Sorry for the multiple posts but I ma at work and get called afk while typing quickly...

GODO · « **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:57:14 PM »

Wotan, I didnt post any question in my original post, but raw info

The question would be, which was the time limit (if any) for continuous 1.58/1.65 ata usage with C3 injection turned on in 190A8? And a second one, I read that 1.42ata was also cleared for unlimited time (not 40 mins) usage in 190A8, is that true? If so, 1.42 would correspond to military (or climb and combat) power setting?
And a last comment, it is clear that AUX tank was added to compensate the effect of C3 injection usage. Our AH 190A8/F8s have these aux tanks, but engine overheats in 10 mins and current fuel consumption does not correspond to that of C3 injection. If we have a very early 190A8, then AUX tank should be removed (not even as an option), else C3 injection should be included, and, may be, have the option to remove the aux tank.

Crumpp · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2004, 05:37:08 PM »

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I think the issue is with your definition of "serialized".

How do you know it's not your definition of serialized?

It was included in production jabo-einsatz's and was a kit in which could be installed at the Geschwader level as well.

It's use is detailed in the FW-190A5 Flugzeug-Handbuch.

Quote

If we have a very early 190A8, then AUX tank should be removed (not even as an option), else C3 injection should be included, and, may be, have the option to remove the aux tank.

The Aux tank was in widespread use among the Jabo units and was available throughout the FW-190A8 production.
IMO it should always be an option for the FW-190A8. ONLY reason a Jagd-einsatz's would have one and not just use a drop tank is if it was equipped with C3 "emergency power".

Quote

The question would be, which was the time limit (if any) for continuous 1.58/1.65 ata usage with C3 injection turned on in 190A8? And a second one, I read that 1.42ata was also cleared for unlimited time (not 40 mins) usage in 190A8, is that true? If so, 1.42 would correspond to military (or climb and combat) power setting?

I will have to check the Flugzeug-Handbuch again.

I believe 1.42ata was approved as an unlimited time setting on the FW-190A8. In fact I will confirm it with a FW-190A8 pilot tonight. I will ask him to run down the engine settings. No guarantees though, sixty years is a long time.
You guys have any specific questions? This guy shot down Mustangs, Spitfires, La5's, Yaks, and plenty of B17's/B24's. He flew the FW-190A8 for the most part. He did tell me "In my FW, I feared no fighter I could see even when heavily outnumbered."

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C3 cooled the charge through evaportion, not necessarily the cylinder heads.

Yes I know it cooled the charge and also prevented pre -detonation. I have BMW Flugmotoren BMW 801MA-BMW-801ML BMW 801C und BMW 801D Handbuch und Teiluberholungsanleitung Mai 1942.

The short answer, not the technical, though is it kept the heads cool. Just try explaining it to your wife and see which one she understands first.

Crumpp