From a neutral's perspective

[Murdr]

Kerry did look better style wise.

I was amused to see Kerry critisize Bush repeatedly for not getting enough allies involved in Iraq, then critisize Bush for not going it alone in talks with North Korea.  I was also amused to see him make an underhanded acusation of Bush outsourcing jobs, then bashing him for not outsoursing jobs to the french and germans for reconstrucion in Iraq.  
Kerry tried to affix blame to Bush for North Korea's nuke wepons program, when their program was precipitated by Clintons atomic energy sharing initative with North Korea.  Then he later suggested the same tactic Clinton used with North Korea was what he would like the opportunity to do with Iran.
Kerry claimed he would have a forgien policy in the tradition of Regan, when in reality he worked aginst Regan's foreigh policy in congress.  While Regan was deploying missles in europe and spending the USSR under the table, Kerry was pushing for a nuclear freeze.
Kerry continued to claim 200 Billion sent to Iraq when that figure includes Afganistan, and the true figure is 124 Billion for Iraq.  Not to mention that allocation of funds hasnt all been used yet.  Thats just stuff I observed watching live.

Of course with the moderator only asking Bush to explain and defend his policies, and asking Kerry what he would have done differelty, you would expect Kerry to look much better.  Gee, its not as if Kerry has a 20 year record in the senate establishing his policies that should be questioned.

[niknak]

I love it. I really do. Let me paraphrase:-

although, having watched the debate, Kerry appeared to have won he actually lost in every way that mattered.

Thank You Nuke. I mean it.

P.S. I realize the nuance you were actually trying to achieve (although i don't necessaarily agree with it). I am pulling a dirty political trick of removing any shading from your statement. I might start calling you a flip flopper next.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by niknak
I love it. I really do. Let me paraphrase:-

although, having watched the debate, Kerry appeared to have won he actually lost in every way that mattered.

Thank You Nuke. I mean it.

P.S. I realize the nuance you were actually trying to achieve (although i don't necessaarily agree with it). I am pulling a dirty political trick of removing any shading from your statement. I might start calling you a flip flopper next.

Gallup poll after debate kind of backs up what I was saying.

John Kerry won the debate Thursday night, 53% to 37%, according to a random sample of 615 registered voters who watched the event. Almost half of the viewers said they felt more favorable about the senator because of the debate, and 60% said Kerry expressed himself more clearly than did President Bush. Despite the positive assessment, viewers said they favored Bush in handling the war in Iraq and serving as commander in chief, little changed from opinions expressed before the debate. And a majority of viewers said it was Bush who better demonstrated he is tough enough for the job.

1. Expressed himself more clearly: Kerry 60% Bush 32%
2. Had a good understanding of the issues Kerry 41% Bush 41%
3. Agreed with you more on the issues you care about:            Bush 49% Kerry 46%
4. Was more believable: Bush 50% Kerry 45%
5. Was more likable: Bush 48% Kerry 41%
6. Demonstrated he is tough enough for the job:                    Bush 54% Kerry 37%

Gallup.com

As you can see by the poll and the Gallup analysis of the results, my point is backed up. I made the point here right after the debate ended that Kerry mearly came off as the better speaker, and nothing else. I nailed it and it was easy to see coming.

On this issues related to the subject of the debate, Bush won every one of them. Kerry had the better manicure and spoke better. Okay, Kerry for President!

[Pei]

Originally posted by lazs2
furball... I would call you a moderate conservative... your countrymen would call you a right wing whacko just to the right fo ghengis khan.

lazs

No they'd just think he was typical Tory. While the US does seem more right wing to most of us it's not that much more right wing.  Plus not everything translates anyway: some issues that are right/left  in the US aren't issues at all in the UK (e.g. abortion).

[Dowding]

...the NHS nearly killed me so i pretty much hate it...

Explain, please. Not very specific. You hate the staff, the system, the food... all three?

My girlfriend is a nurse on a renal ward, I'm interested in your views.

[Furball]

Originally posted by Dowding
Explain, please. Not very specific. You hate the staff, the system, the food... all three?

The staff are nice.  The system sucks, there are too few nurses to patients, the wards are dirty and over crowded, the doctors have too many patients to see and it is all a disorganised mess.  Oh and i was nil by mouth for a good 3 or 4 days (so i cant really comment on the food - but what i did have was barely edible.) while they ****ed about delaying my operation,  which nearly killed me (would have killed me they found out later - i changed to private ward, had operation same day, if they had left it one more day theres a good chance i would have died).

I got sent in with appendicitis (doctor sent covering note), they left it for 3 weeks, told my family it was all kinds of crap including liver trouble, cancer, gall stones, gastroentiritis + many more i cant remember.  While all the poison from my appendix was leaking into my body, after the 3 weeks they decided to do an endoscope? (small camera in belly button) to see what was wrong, once they did that they finally realised it was my appendix, but by this time my gut was full of poison and they had to cut me open, take it all out and clean it.

Went into hospital weighing about 11 stone, came out under 8 stone (mostly due to all the un-necessary nil by mouth time. i was 18 years old at time, 6 feet tall).

At one point they sent me to another local hospital to get an MRI? scan.  They paid a taxi to take me there, wait outside while i had the scan, then take me back to the original hospital.  This cost about £60 or so and one week after the scan the ****ers had lost the results.

That is why i hate the NHS, it is nothing better than a last resort for those that cannot afford better.

[lazs2]

furball... under our syustem and with the right ambulance chaser like the guy running with kerrie..... you should get about 10 million dollars for the pain and suffering caused by such incompetence.

lazs

[Dowding]

All I can say is that I'm glad you pulled through. It's a good job you were young, fit and heathy going in there. Someone older might not have made it.

They are understaffed, BTW. No doubt about that - I get told that often by girlfriend. But it is better than the American system by a long shot.

Personally, the French system seems to be the most effective. Their hospitals are clean and well run - but they do have to pay for it through higher taxation and a kind of compulsary public medical insurance (IIRC).

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Dowding
All I can say is that I'm glad you pulled through. It's a good job you were young, fit and heathy going in there. Someone older might not have made it.

They are understaffed, BTW. No doubt about that - I get told that often by girlfriend. But it is better than the American system by a long shot.

Personally, the French system seems to be the most effective. Their hospitals are clean and well run - but they do have to pay for it through higher taxation and a kind of compulsary public medical insurance (IIRC).

Not to mention that tens of thousands of old french citizens never die due to the heat.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Dowding
But it is better than the American system by a long shot.

Ok, how? In fact how wold you know?

[Furball]

i pity you if it is.

[straffo]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Not to mention that tens of thousands of old french citizens never die due to the heat.

Coming from a sensitive person like you  see this
I find this very nice.
What did happen to your brain ? it melted ?