Author Topic: F-86 vs Mig-15... (Read 2255 times)

Boroda · « **Reply #30 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:30:28 PM »

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Originally posted by Otto
The short answer, as you saw, was "No".

But, it's very possiable that Mig-15's did go supersonic in dives but because they lacked the the power boosted contols necessary to pull out, they only did it once.

Not exactly so.

MiG-15s, especially MiG-15prim (first version with RD-45 engines) had a problem with so-called "valyozhka" (flip-over), when at certain speed plane turned belly-up and went into an uncontrolled dive. The problem was solved when the production quality was enforced - original MiG right and left wings could have a difference up to 15cm in measures because of bad production

Please notice that this damn thing flew even with different wings!

About German design: it's not true. Soviet aerodynamics was absolutely home-brewn. Ta-183 could probably never fly. Germans AFAIK didn't have a theory of swept-wing.

One of interesting things about MiG: Eugeniy Pepelyaev wrote that because of wing-fences MiG had a very little ability to slide, so avoiding enemy fire with pedals only was almost impossible.

Another Pepelyaev's experience: he lost a wingman once when intelligence raported that Sabres turn worse then MiGs at high alt. He engaged in a turnfight at 10,000m+ and lost it... After that he never tried to turn against Sabres.

I think that Sabres turned better because Americans had G-suits, and that's why capturing a Sabre was so important for volunteers: they need a compensator device to be studied in USSR.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #31 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:35:07 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
About German design: it's not true. Soviet aerodynamics was absolutely home-brewn. Ta-183 could probably never fly. Germans AFAIK didn't have a theory of swept-wing.

Boroda · « **Reply #32 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:35:44 PM »

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Originally posted by LLv34_Snefens
"After the war, the Ta 183 story continued. The Soviets found a complete set of plans for the Ta 183 in Berlin at the RLM offices, and began construction of six prototypes in March 1946 by the MIG design bureau. On July 2, 1947, the first Soviet-built Ta 183 took to the air powered by a British Rolls-Royce "Nene" turbojet. They discovered that the original Ta 183 design needed either automatic leading edge slots or wing boundry layer fences to alleviate low-speed stalling. Also, as a compromise between high-speed and low-speed flying, the horizontal stabilizer was moved approximately one-third down from the top of the vertical tail. The modified Ta 183 first flew on December 30, 1947 and in May 1948 was ordered into production as the MIG 15."

http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html

It's not true, because everyone knows that Russians copied flying saucer design they have stolen from Area-51.

I love this fairy-tales about stolen designs. Now tell me that AK is a stolen StG-43

Ripsnort · « **Reply #33 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:38:52 PM »

Adolf Busemann ring a bell?

Boroda · « **Reply #34 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:39:10 PM »

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Originally posted by Ripsnort

Look at wing fences. The aerodynamics of Ta-183 and Mig-15 is absolutely different. Only sick imagination or heavy drug usage can make someone think that this aircrafts are similar in design. MiG-25 and F-15 look much closer to each other.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #35 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:45:52 PM »

I was speaking of your theory that the Soviets had no input other than their own in regards to swept-wing technology.

Busemann's 1935 theory was incomplete in the sense that only wings having supersonic sweep were considered.

storch · « **Reply #36 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:53:20 PM »

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
LOL, whoever said that every thread here has some Canadian making some patheic anbd pointles "See Mister, Canada is better, See See See Huh See!!" had you pegged Thrawn...

And to think I have seen you smugly criticize excessive US flag waving on this board...

Actually the Canadair Sabre Mk6 with the Orenda 10 Engine was the definitive Sabre model and arguably the very best day fighter of that period.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #37 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:56:38 PM »

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Originally posted by storch
Actually the Canadair Sabre Mk6 with the Orenda 10 Engine was the definitive Sabre model and arguably the very best day fighter of that period.

That isnt the point storch, it nev4er was about the plane.

storch · « **Reply #38 on:** October 14, 2004, 01:59:23 PM »

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
That isnt the point storch, it nev4er was about the plane.

I know but I'm just saying in this instance he is correct IMHO.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #39 on:** October 14, 2004, 02:00:11 PM »

I know.

Boroda · « **Reply #40 on:** October 14, 2004, 02:13:17 PM »

http://hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27791&highlight=MiG15

Will look for more discussions like that tomorrow

Otto · « **Reply #41 on:** October 14, 2004, 02:41:35 PM »

Boroda using facts again but that dosen't mean I have to

Something different:

About five years ago the Airshow at the local base included a 'dogfight' between a Mig-15 and an F9F Panther. This was the first time I'd ever seen a Mig fly. I was VERY impressed. It was every inch a fighter plane. Very fast and very stable. It totally outclassed the Panther in the demo and the Mig had to wait till the F9F could get on it's tail to 'shoot' it down. (Hometown favorite)

Now, that really dosen't say much about the two planes in actual combat because this was all taking place in a very small area, under 3000' and with two pilots most likely had different ideas about how far they wanted to push there million dollar investments.

But, if you ever see a Mig-15 fly you'll never believe the air war over Korea was anything but dangerous.

Wolfala · « **Reply #42 on:** October 14, 2004, 04:41:27 PM »

Boroda,

In reference to our ICQ conversation about the F4U4C dogfight with the Mig15 - it is in the International Airpower Review Vol11. The pilot was Capt. Jesse Folmar of the USMC VMF-312 from the USS Sicily for an interdiction against the Chinese troop conventrations around Chinnamppo. His wingie Lt. Walter Daniels couldnt find any activity when they were about to turn to the coast and 2 Mig15s appeared and setup a firing pass on the F4U's. The Marines Jet'd their ord and turned into the formation. ONe of the Migs made a firing pass and as it turned up and to the left, Folmar turned inside it and fired a burst of 20mm - impacting all along the side and it began to leave a trail of vapor and fuel that quickly turned black. At this instant the jet began decelerating repidly and moments later the pilot ejected. Folmar stated the pilot appeared to be a ball of black smoke and when his chute opened he could tell the pilots suite was on fire. The Mig15 hit the water in a vertical position.

However, more Migs arrived and a monite later, according to Folmar, oraange golf balls enveloped him - he felt a jolt and looking outside the cockpit, he saw his left wing was gutted all the way to his inboard gun. So, he bailed out - was rescured 8 minutes later after hitting the water. An incredible kill for a ww2 prop fighter, even though it did not end the way it should've.

Wolf

Elfie · « **Reply #43 on:** October 14, 2004, 06:38:56 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
I don't know about the German design ... probably was based on German aerodynamic research to some degree at least. Engine was a copy of the RR Nene.

There was a German prototype (3 prototypes were built) of a new Focke-Wulfe jet fighter. It was the TA-192 IIRC. The MiG-15 bears a striking resemblence to the TA-192. The Soviets captured the 3 prototypes. Experts say it would have been a match for either the MiG-15 or the F-86 Sabre.....and....it would have been armed with wire-guided missiles that had been successfully test fired from FW190's.

Widewing · « **Reply #44 on:** October 14, 2004, 08:22:18 PM »

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Originally posted by OIO
Remember its not only the Mig15 but also the Mig17.

In paper both migs, and particularly the Mig17, beat the Sabre.

The only problem was that there were no MiG-17s in Korea. Just the MiG-15 and MiG-15bis.

My regards,

Widewing