F-86 vs Mig-15...

[Elfie]

Boroda, in WWII the western allies rushed to grab all the German technology that they could. What makes you believe the Soviets were any different?

This http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html contradicts a couple things I said earlier. Most notably this article claims no TA-183 prototypes were built by the Germans and that the British not the Soviets captured the factory. (Can't find the other source that claimed there were in fact 3 prototypes built and that the Soviets captured them)

You also mentioned the wing fences were different between the TA-183 and the MiG-15. The article I linked addresses that issue. According to this article the Soviets modified the TA-183 by lowering the the horizontal stabilizers as a compromise between high speed and low speed flying. After building 6 TA-183 prototypes the Soviets discovered the TA-183 needed either leading edge slats or wing boundary layer fences to alleviate low speed stalls. You also mentioned that the Germans had no swept wing technology. Pictures of the TA-183 disprove this (TA-183 wings are swept back at 40 degrees), also the ME-262 has swept wings.

Boroda, it would have been incredibly stupid for the Soviets to NOT use captured technology.

I have not yet found information on just how many MiG-15's were sent to North Korea and how many were sent to China. More on that later hopefully.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Elfie
also the ME-262 has swept wings.

The Me 262 had swept wings for the same reason the C-47 had swept wings: Moving lift aft to the normal Cg of the airframe. In other words, balance. What was significant about the 262 was the wing's chord to thickness ratio (about 11% I believe).

My regards,

Widewing

[SunTracker]

The F-86 was originally designed with straight wings.  Going off data from the 262, it was redesigned with swept wings and became 100mph faster.

[Elfie]

GS are you implying the US may have used captured German technology in the development of the F-86 Sabre??  *gasp*  

[Suave]

Originally posted by Raubvogel
I knew it was only a matter of time before Commissar Boroda showed up and presented the REAL truth.

I think you mean zampolit, communist party officer, much the same role as the chaplain in the US army, except the religion is stalinism.

[Elfie]

Actually GS, the biggest visual differences (imo) between the TA-183/MiG-15, ME-P1101/F-86 is the length of the fuselage. It is much shorter on the German aircraft than it is on the Soviet/American jets.

Although I have not seen any information that says we used German technology to design a specific aircraft I know we did in fact capture alot of German technology. This technology was studied and used by the US.

According to Boroda though, there is absolutely no way the Soviets did the same thing

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p86_9.html

Soviet archives that have only recently come to light officially list 345 Soviet-piloted MiG-15s having been lost to UN aircraft of all types during the Korean conflict. There are no comparable figures available for Chinese or North Korean losses. By the early spring of 1953, most of the Soviet units had been withdrawn from combat, and most of the MiGs were now being flown by Chinese or North Korean pilots.

At the end of the Korean War, the seven American fighter Wings in Korea had 297 Sabres on hand, with 132 of them being with fighter-bomber Wings.


At any one time, only about 60 Sabres could be put into the air, assuming that everything was "right", with the rest of the force remaining at Kimpo or Suwon on alert or down for maintenance. Even when at maximum levels, the Sabre force was far outnumbered by the MiGs. By late 1951, there were enough MiGs available so that the Chinese forces attempted to move a couple of MiG squadrons into the base at Uiju, North Korea. UN air attacks soon made this base untenable, forcing the MiGs back across the Yalu.

A third squadron was added to the 51st FIG (the 39the FIS) in June of 1952. The number disparity still remained, with the MiGs outnumbering the Sabres about 1000 to 150 during late 1952

It is now known that there were Soviet fighter squadrons which participated in the air combat along the Yalu. They were rotated through the MiG bases on the northern side of the Yalu. Soviet Air Force MiGs operated from bases at Antung, Fengcheng, Tak Tung Kao, Takushan, Juantien, and others. At Mukden in Manchuria there were large numbers of MiGs waiting to replace those lost in battle or rotating home. Some Eastern Block units also participated. In addition, Soviet Units carried out extensive training of Chinese and North Korean pilots.

All of the above is copy/pasted from the same article (link to the article provided above)

Still having a hard time coming up with hard numbers for the actual amount of MiG's that were supplied to North Korea and China. Boroda? Maybe you can help us with this?

[storch]

There was an interesting article in the August 2004 Issue of Flight Journal about chasing MiGs North of the Yalu River into China.

 " The first MiG was a piece of cake.  I was going one way, and he the other way.  And he was higher than I was.  I did a 180 degree turn and nestled in on his butt.  I looked around; nobody behind me, so I put my speed brakes out to get co-equal speed and fired .50 cal. bullets right up his rear!  The MiG exploded, and the pilot jumped.  It's unusual to see a man going by you in his seat with no airplane attached."  Steve Bettinger, 2003.  Pretty neat discription of an encounter.

Apparently the MiGs would run for home when the Sabres appeared.

Flight Journal is a great publication.

[Gunslinger]

I surprised no one has mentioned a majro flaw in the mig design that led to many victorys for the 86.

The mig had a crappy environmental system.  Data collected from a captured mig indicated that the migs could not persue the 86s in a dive because there canopys would fog up.

This led to tactics of taking the migs down to the deck to fight.  The mig pilot could not see and would lose the 86 to only have it end up blasting it out of the sky.

Saw that on discovery chan. once.  Really good show.

[SirLoin]

Hope this helps..

(1)The Sabre rolled faster
(2)The Mig had poor yaw control and would osscilate several times before it became stable enough to aim
(3)Below 15,00 feet any advantage the Mig had disappeared
(4)The Mig outclimbed the F86 at all altitudes...The higher the alt..the more performance advantage the Mig had
(5)The Mig can initially outdive the f86..but sustained dives al low alt..they are equal
(6)Above 20,000 ft the Mig is faster,more so the higher the alt..Below 20,000ft..they are roughly equal
(7)The Mig can out accelerate the sabre in a dive and more noticebly in a climb
(8)The Sabre can decellerate a little faster(w dive brakes deployed)
(9)The Mig has a much higher ceiling
(10)At 40,000ft..the F86 will stall trying to turn with a Mig..At 30,000 they are equal and below that the F86 will outturn the Mig


It's close but I'd give the Mig the edge in performance.

[Elfie]

Also Boroda, at what point did the Soviets have the most number of (Soviet piloted) MiG's in China? And how many were there?

[SunTracker]

Gunslinger that was just a problem with the mig they captured.  Isolated incident.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Boroda
I have Soviet data, declassified after 40 years in 1993, when they actually OPPOSED official propaganda (saying that Americans were superior to Soviets in every field).

Soviet pilots were superior to "UN" forces.

150 fighters opposing the whole power of the Western world.

Sleeping in cockpits, on "alert number one". Ready to take off and fight agressors who wanted to destroy Yalu river (Amnokkan) powerstations... Half of the pilots from first shift (winter 1950 - spring 1951) 64th IAK were forced to be removed from duty because of mental and physical exaustion...

And they still remained absolutely superior to "UN forces", only Sabres were formidable enemy for them.

You have to understand that Soviet pilots were anti-aircraft defence unit. They were fighting to protect. And they were always fighting the enemy that had numeric superiority. Their goal was not to shoot down Sabres, but to protect strategic objects like powerstation levees and railway nods from "UN airforce".

Brave communists protecting their innocent North korean comrades from the dastardly american agression that began in june 1950!!

Yes comrade!!! Look at the red banner with pride!!!

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by SunTracker
Gunslinger that was just a problem with the mig they captured.  Isolated incident.

That's not what the 4 or 5 sabre pilots said in the interviews.....but hey...they were there, what do they know?

[storch]

Originally posted by GScholz
No, but that's what the Russian pilots said. You know ... the ones that were flying the MiG's.


All in all I think it is safe to say that while the MiG did have some important performance advantages the Sabre was the better weapon system for air-to-air combat vs. fighters. Better view, better gun sight, G-suit, and easier to push to the limit. The MiG's gun package and climb rate made it better for bomber interception though ... which was the MiG's primary design goal.

OMG I agree with with Gunther!!!!

[Widewing]

Originally posted by SirLoin
Hope this helps..

(1)The Sabre rolled faster
(2)The Mig had poor yaw control and would osscilate several times before it became stable enough to aim
(3)Below 15,00 feet any advantage the Mig had disappeared
(4)The Mig outclimbed the F86 at all altitudes...The higher the alt..the more performance advantage the Mig had
(5)The Mig can initially outdive the f86..but sustained dives al low alt..they are equal
(6)Above 20,000 ft the Mig is faster,more so the higher the alt..Below 20,000ft..they are roughly equal
(7)The Mig can out accelerate the sabre in a dive and more noticebly in a climb
(8)The Sabre can decellerate a little faster(w dive brakes deployed)
(9)The Mig has a much higher ceiling
(10)At 40,000ft..the F86 will stall trying to turn with a Mig..At 30,000 they are equal and below that the F86 will outturn the Mig


It's close but I'd give the Mig the edge in performance.

This looks like you are comparing the F-86A to the MiG-15bis. Try comparing the F-86F to the MiG and you may change your opinion.

By the way, all Sabres could exceed Mach 1 in a dive, the Mig could not. From 35k, the Sabre would be above Mach 1 by 30k. If the MiG followed, he did so at great risk.

MiGs were very durable aircraft. Hundreds came home riddled by .50 cal. Had the USAF followed the Navy's lead and armed their fighters with four 20mm cannon, MiG losses would have been much higher, and they were very high as it was. No Sabre had 20mm cannon until the F-86H, which arrived in service about 10 months after the Korean cease fire. Navy encounters between F9Fs and MiGs demonstrated the killing power of the 20mm. If the Panther pilot got a gun solution on a MiG, it was doomed (their radar ranging gunsights were very effective). Likewise, the MiG needed only one 37mm hit on any fighter to ruin its pilot's day. The problem was that the 37mm wasn't of much use against fighter, and the two 23mm guns weren't much better. Neither the Sabre or the MiG had a gun package ideally suited for fighter to fighter combat. However, the Sabre's was better, but still far behind the Navy's F9F, F2H, and F3D-2.

By the way, here's an interesting stat. When escorted by Navy F3D night fighters, not a single B-29 was shot down by enemy aircraft. Quite a few Lavochkins, Yaks and even some MiGs were splashed by the Sky Knights. F3Ds absolutely owned the night sky over North Korea.

My regards,

Widewing