No (more) guns please - we're British

[beet1e]

Maverick said "Spook has made his position clear. It's pretty much the same as beetls. The population cannot be trusted. They must be managed for thier own good. Aparently Australia feels that thier police are not there to protect and serve, they are there to insure the population is carefuly kept in bounds.  Actual lack of misdeed by the vast majority of gun owners is immaterial. All must suffer for the misdeed or potential misdeed of a few."

As far as I'm concerned, you have it backwards. I am not suffering at all because of not having a gun. I never had one and never wanted one, and even though I could buy certain types of shotgun or even a crossbow (which can be as lethal as a gun at close range) I don't think I'll bother.

No sir, the absence of guns makes us free. I can go out at night and walk across open park land/playing fields, late at night, and feel completely safe. Could I do that in New York? Don't think so. Our system isn't perfect, but it keeps the gun homicide rate down to <100, which is better than 10000+.

Originally posted by Jackal1
No sir. I`m talking about "here" as in planet earth.
  You may not have an ingrained gun culture, but the fact that you have posted that you are seeing crime involving guns where they have been none before disproves your theory in itself.
  Like I said, guns have been here for a long time. They will be more guns. Laws/bans will not work. It only deters those willing to abide by the law the right to defend themself. There is no stopping the manufacture of guns, laws or no laws. There will be more and more. Supply and demand. You even outlaw the making of guns and you have once again fell into the hands of those that don`t play by the rules. Guns, fine quality guns, or easily manufactured. I am supposing you know the history and outcome of our prohibition years here in the states. It only put money in the pockets of those who didn`t care how many laws that were past. Again supply and demand.
  My point is , and I`ll say this as delicately as I can, is that where you are at, you are catching up with other parts of the world. It`s reality setting in and your trying to stick your head in the sand and wish it away.
  Simply put.... It`s not going to work. Never has, never will.

 I disagree. It is working, even if not perfectly. That's why we have fewer than 100 gun homicides each year, compared to more than 10,000 in many years in the US.

As for "seeing crime involving guns where they have been none before", I never said that, so no theory has been disproved. What I can tell you, looking at an old home office report, is that there were more gun homicides in 1974 (51) than there were in 1996 (49). As I have said, repeatedly, the changes are pretty much year on year fluctuations. You can't just look at two years side by side and point to a trend.

But I am concerned by the current "gangsta rappa" fashion of carrying guns. The thing is that thanks to gun control, the only guns they can get their hands on are often old and inaccurate. The story in my original post shows that even though our gun crime is next to nothing compared to yours, there's no room for complacency.

[SC-Sp00k]

Originally posted by Maverick
Toad,

Spook has made his position clear. It's pretty much the same as beetls. The population cannot be trusted. They must be managed for thier own good. Aparently Australia feels that thier police are not there to protect and serve, they are there to insure the population is carefuly kept in bounds.

Nice try Mav. As you well know however, that it is not the Police who make the laws. they just enforce them. Changes in percieved public opinion and Politicians on the election band wagon change or do not change the law.

Orignally posted by jackal1

It's the criminal human with the gun. There are ways to regulate that; in fact I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that there are hundreds of laws on the books with that exact purpose.

At no time, have I mentioned criminals with guns. Ive spoken about the population as a whole.  The kid who gets his fathers gun from the bedroom closet, the aggrieved ex boyfriend who gets his parents gun from the bedroom drawer,  the lover who discovers their partner's been infaithful.

Not your everyday stereotypical criminal but your everyday Joe Schoe, takes a packed lunch to work, citizen who's button has suddenly been pressed by whatever motivates the act at the time.

Again, the human variable.  A criminal is clear in his intent.  He can be monitored and acted upon prior to commiting an act when known.  Joe Schmoe by accident or design can not.

[J_A_B]

"I can go out at night and walk across open park land/playing fields, late at night, and feel completely safe."

So can I. My hometown hasn't had a killing of any kind in recent memory (decades).  

On the other hand, there are parts of Cleveland where I wouldn't feel safe in broad daylight, let alone at night.  Likewise I am sure London has its share of questionable areas.  

I don't like "national" solutions for most problems because this is an awful big country.  What might be helpful for Cleveland would be insane here.

Judicial reform IS one thing which is needed almost everywhere.  If we somehow did away with repeat offenders, crime of all types would take a MASSIVE plunge.  

Maybe we should have stiff penalties for all crime, and use criminals as cheap labor for companies so they don't have to re-locate overseas.  Yeah, it could work.

J_A_B

[beet1e]

J_A_B, you're right. I accept what you said.

I'm sure London does have questionable areas, but let us remember that Lazs once visited a "questionable" area of London, but he told us he felt as safe there as he would at a Church bingo night - and that was without his gun. And yet he sleeps with a loaded .45 by his bed when at home in CA. I wonder why that is...

[Excel1]

Originally posted by beet1e

But I am concerned by the current "gangsta rappa" fashion of carrying guns. The thing is that thanks to gun control, the only guns they can get their hands on are often old and inaccurate.  

Beetle,tight gun control won't solve a social problem like that described in your original post. At the most it can only slow down and limit the damage the gangs can do. From reading that newspaper article it sounds like that type of gang gun culture is a fairly recent phenomenon in Britain. If it's not stomped on and becomes endemic with the gangs then you Brits could have a big problem in the near future. Those wanabee gangsters with their old and inaccurate guns and not much money will develop into hardened criminals with the means (drugs money) to buy all the guns they want smuggled from the continent, ( supply and demand rulz) and have an attitude that would make Reagan and Carter want to quit the plod.

Excel

[J_A_B]

I dunno Beet1e....guess he can do what he wants.   My dad, a man of almost 80, sleeps with a light on--he always has.  Doesn't mean there's a reason for it, he just does.



J_A_B

[Excel1]

Originally posted by J_A_B


Maybe we should have stiff penalties for all crime, and use criminals as cheap labor for companies so they don't have to re-locate overseas.  Yeah, it could work.

J_A_B

Yous can't do that.

Cause the wombles at the UN wont let ya.

Excel

[J_A_B]

Bloody UN wombles!

J_A_B

[Pei]

Gods, is it this time of the month again already?

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k

Orignally posted by jackal1

It's the criminal human with the gun. There are ways to regulate that; in fact I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that there are hundreds of laws on the books with that exact purpose.
. [/B]

 Although I have written you off as struck out, I would appreciate it if you are going to make an attempt to edit or change something I supposedly stated to pleased be advised it will look more realistic if you use a capitol J in your hack job. Also you might consider using at least some of the content from one of MY posts instead of a statement made by someone else.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
   I disagree. It is working, even if not perfectly. That's why we have fewer than 100 gun homicides each year, compared to more than 10,000 in many years in the US.
 [/B]

  Your country is slowly coming out of the ice age. Along with it will be changes and more and more of everything that goes along with it, crime included. You will see an increase in crime and you will also see a large increase in gun numbers accordingly along with the progression of everything else that goes with  this. The street and professional criminal is slowly awakening to the fact in your country just how easy it is to take advantage of a near guaranteed unarmed citizen. No amount of laws passed or bans, denial to the public, etc. will stop this from happening. It will just hinder and deny your average citizen the tools by which to protect his family and property from the criminal.
  Beet, I`ll give you a tip. If and when you finaly pull your head out of the sand and admit that you are in denial, you will find a Q-tip lightly dipped in baby oil will get those last, hard to reach grains from your ears.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Excel1
Beetle,tight gun control won't solve a social problem like that described in your original post. At the most it can only slow down and limit the damage the gangs can do. From reading that newspaper article it sounds like that type of gang gun culture is a fairly recent phenomenon in Britain. If it's not stomped on and becomes endemic with the gangs then you Brits could have a big problem in the near future. Those wanabee gangsters with their old and inaccurate guns and not much money will develop into hardened criminals with the means (drugs money) to buy all the guns they want smuggled from the continent, ( supply and demand rulz) and have an attitude that would make Reagan and Carter want to quit the plod.

Excel, you're quite right - I agree with you that tight gun control cannot SOLVE the problem described in my original post. That's why I have said all along that our gun laws do work, but like any other law they do not work perfectly. So I will have to settle for slowing down and limiting the damage that gangs do. Remember, that in about two thirds of gun crimes, the gun is an imitation. But because it has been used to instil fear or to threaten, use of these objects is still considered a gun crime.

Jackal said

The street and professional criminal is slowly awakening to the fact in your country just how easy it is to take advantage of a near guaranteed unarmed citizen. No amount of laws passed or bans, denial to the public, etc. will stop this from happening. It will just hinder and deny your average citizen the tools by which to protect his family and property from the criminal.

So what do you suggest? Legalise guns? Arm the public? A gun shop on every street corner? Do that, and we would see our gun homicides skyrocket. "Gangstas" who once made do with an old, inaccurate replica would suddenly be sporting .44 magnums. It would become just like America, and we could see 3000 gun homicides annually. Don't for one second believe that if we legalised guns and armed the public, only the law abiding would have guns. That's pure fantasy. It doesn't work in America, and it wouldn't work here. As our resident sage has already pointed out in this thread, our gun crime is next to nothing. The status quo is not utopia, but it's far preferable to the alternative.

[beet1e]

Here's another story. Violent crime up 11%; 29 gun crime incidents a day.

I blame the Blair government for at least part of this. Blair's government has turned us into a "pocket money" society, in which the state thinks it knows how best our money should be spent. Tax, fat government, out of touch ministers, regulation and meddling is what we have right now. Blair's government has increased police bureaucracy to such a level that the average beat copper spends only half his time on the streets, and the other half producing paperwork. Now the Gov. wants to implement a new procedure whereby a police officer would have to spend 7 minutes filling in paperwork for every time they stopped someone for questioning.

What we need is

• more prisons
• tougher sentencing
• less police paperwork
• more police on the streets
• better parenting
• greater powers of school discipline
• an end to government encouragement in creating single parent families

We won't get any of those things with Tony Blair's "New" Labour.

Violent crime soars but Labour puts gloss on it
By John Steele Home Affairs Correspondent
(Filed: 22/10/2004)

Levels of violent crime recorded by police soared by 11 per cent in the second quarter of this year, Government figures showed yesterday.

 
 
Recorded gun crime rose by three per cent to 10,590 incidents in the year to June - an average of 29 a day and more than double the rate when Labour took power - although firearm killings were down.

There was a 14 per cent rise in offences of violence against the person: 265,800 incidents from April to June compared with 233,600 in the corresponding period last year.

Despite a claim by Home Office ministers that Labour had significantly reduced crime, the recorded crime figures showed that more than 3,000 offences of aggression and violence, from spitting and threats to murder by bullet and blade, take place in England and Wales every day.

Sexual offences, another component of violent crime, rose by 18 per cent, while robbery, the other major component, fell by 15 per cent.

Overall, recorded violent crime rose by 11 per cent year on year, from 273,100 offences in April to June last year to 303,500 in the second quarter of this year.

A different set of recorded crime figures showed that gun crime continued to rise. In the 12 months to June last year there were 10,280 offences. In the year to June this year, the figure rose to 10,590 - more than double the rate in 1997 when Labour came to power.

There was a substantial rise in the use of imitation and replica guns, which are frequently modified to fire. But gun killings fell from 82 to 70, a 15 per cent drop.

The Home Office said there would be a renewed drive against crime in London, the West Midlands and Greater Manchester - the areas where about two thirds of offences take place - as well as in Nottingham, where a 14-year-old girl was shot dead two weeks ago.

Home Office sources said a central feature of the drive would be the sharing of information and expertise across the country by the Metropolitan Police Trident team, which has enjoyed successes in tackling gun crime in the capital's black community, particularly in protecting witnesses who have stood up against the gunmen.

Another recent police success, in the Metropolitan area and other urban forces, was reflected in a continued fall in levels of street robberies, which fell by 15 per cent between the two quarter years. Domestic burglaries also fell.

Overall, recorded crime fell from 1,526,100 offences in the three months to June last year to 1,447,100 crimes in June this year. The increases in violence were counter-balanced by falls in property crime, such as thefts from cars, and fraud.

David Blunkett, the Home Secretary, and one of his ministers, Caroline Flint, gave their version of the figures at a news conference in a Labour Party building chaired by Alan Milburn, the party's election co-ordinator.

They chose to focus not on crime recorded by police but on the British Crime Survey. The survey interviewed 40,000 people on their experiences of crime, not just what they reported to police, and levels of offences were extrapolated from that. The survey's crime levels have traditionally been considerably higher than police recorded crime.

The Home Office claims that the survey is "the most authoritative and reliable indicator of crime trends". That is challenged by Government critics, who say that long-term trends for most crimes have been rising since 1997.

Mr Blunkett said the survey showed that crime had fallen by 30 per cent since 1997, with a 42 per cent drop in burglary and a 40 per cent fall in vehicle crime. In contrast to the recorded crime picture of violence, he cited the survey as showing a 26 per cent fall in violent crime since 1997.

Miss Flint said: "Of course just having a gun pointed at you is a frightening experience . . . but around two thirds of firearms offences involve no injury at all."

David Davis, the shadow home secretary, said: "No amount of Government spin will hide the fact that violent crime is out of control.

"There is now one gun crime an hour and by the Government's own admission this is fuelled by drugs, both of which they have let get out of control."

[J_A_B]

"What we need is

more prisons
tougher sentencing
less police paperwork
more police on the streets
better parenting
greater powers of school discipline
an end to government encouragement in creating single parent families"


We need that too, ALL of it, prolly even more than you guys do.

80% of the children born in Cleveland these days are born into single-parent households (Cleveland being the largest city within 50 miles of me).   That doesn't likely bode well for the future.


J_A_B

[SC-Sp00k]

Jackal1.  Its late here. I may have inadvertently misquoted. I shall check in the morning and stand corrected if thats the case.