No (more) guns please - we're British

[Jackal1]

You know, when it comes right down to it there`s not enough bans, laws or denying that is gonna stop murders , attacks, etc from escalating more and more. All that is accomplished by bans and laws is to take away the citizens tool by which to protect his family and property and to empower the criminal even more . The criminal is going to get guns no matter what and bans/laws denying the average citizen the right to own and carry plays right into their hands. Guns have been here for centuries and will continue to be here. Some places have more guns than others. Some places have more crime than others, but gun numbers will continue to grow no matter what regardless of laws passed. It`s the real world we live in not a game of "what ifs" or "I wish". It`s just plain, simple facts.
  If your in the bush and old Simba is coming your way with the intent of having you for lunch, then sticking your head in the sand trying to deny his existence and the fact he`s coming your way is going to make you the blue plate special of the day.
  I`m in a situation right now, as we speak, that has escalated over a period of a month or two. Right now it is very, very touchy. The dam can break at any minute. I certainly hope and pray it does not, but wishing it away won`t work. It`s the real world.
  The county law officers in this area or spread thin and frankly most of them are not up to par. (Note I said most, not all) To sum it up, the situation has not been handled by the SO as of yet. Time continues to drag on and little progress is being made, but it hasn`t stopped the situation from escalating.
  It gives me some feeling of comfort to know that  my house gun is clean, oiled and a fresh loaded clip is in place if and when this situation comes to a head. I at least have a chance of protecting my home, my wife and myself if the time comes. Without it there would be little chance of defense if and when the time comes.
  It`s the real world. It`s not always as we want it, nor is it as it would be if we got our wish list, but it`s what we have to deal with and to to it with the resources available.

[lazs2]

nashwan... one minor problem with your conclussion....

criminals using fake guns here has gone way up too... so much so that the penalties for cutting the orange thingie off the end of a fake gun sometimes exceed even penalties for real guns...

it isn't that guns are hard to get here or anywhere it's just that fake guns are getting so good these days.   Some lower class criminals simply can't afford or, believe it or not, are afraid of real guns.   fake guns are lighter and easier to conceal than the same real gun.

lazs

[SC-Sp00k]

Jackal1.

Im not even sure what your trying to say. You and I exist on the same planet dont we?  

Good to see you made some sort of intelligient remark with your later post. I was beginning to worry for you.  Lets keep it like that so we have something to talk about eh?

So many posts, so little time.

Toad.

I can show you a pen which kills and writes at the same time. Is it a pen or a gun?

I cant explain it it you any further if you dont have it by now.
You are correct when you agree with me that its the human factor.  You are incorrect when you say, I believe its the gun.

I dont believe its the gun.  Its the human with the gun.  How do you regulate and risk manage that? Theres only one way and thats gun control.

Laz

I also believe that whilst we are talking about the U.S in this debate it is not U.S. exclusive and can happen anywhere.  It happened here in Oz.

The problem (as I see it. no stats required) is that your belief is ingrained in your culture that your right to carry guns is legal by constitution and therefore untouchable as a subject other than offering it as a breach of your rights should anyone oppose it.

Further to that (current political state of the world not withstanding) that you as a people appear to be suffer a siege mentality.  It the murderer isnt going to come through your bedroom window at night, he's going to storm your shores and be met not only with the most powerful Army, Airforce and Navy known to man, but by every swinging d*ck in the sleepy hollows of America who can carry a gun.

Ask yourself why School shooting occurred in the first place. Not what the percieved deterrent appears to be (as you believe it).
Humans had guns who shouldnt have.

[Toad]

SPOOK:

a piece of machinery which has 1 purpose and 1 purpose only, to seriously maim or end human life?

Sorry, Spook. This statement is just BS. There are too many examples that prove the contrary to bother listing them.

However, I understand that it's a vacuous, airy-fairy generalization that makes your position seem "correct" to anyone without the intelligence or desire to educate themselves.

SPOOK:

Its the human with the gun. How do you regulate and risk manage that? Theres only one way and thats gun control.

It's the criminal human with the gun.  There are ways to regulate that; in fact I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you that there are hundreds of laws on the books with that exact purpose.

The problem is that your side desires not to "regulate" the human with the gun. You side desires to prohibit the human from having a gun. Thus, the confiscation in Australia and Britain.

You don't really talk about "gun control"; you folks are for gun prohibition and confiscation.

That approach has totally poisoned the discussion. There are those here in the US that aren't really opposed to somewhat increased regulation of firearms.

However, it's MORE than clear that no matter how much new "regulation" our side supports, endorses and complies with, IT WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH.

Nope.

The other side always wants more.... until we end up with the Brit/Aussie "solution" which is no reasonable solution at all.

Therefore, there's always going to be opposition to even the smallest increase in "regulation" here. It's the "camel's nose"; no matter what the law abiding gun owners agree too, they realize it will not stop the antis drive to confiscate every firearm extant.

There are reasonable people on one side; on the other side there's the unreasonable confiscators.

Pretty clear where you sit.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Toad
Again, I'll point out that Moore couldn't come up with a reasonable explanation in BFC, either... so he just left the subject hanging in his film.

He started off with a interesting hypothesis that it was because the US poplulation is inundated with fear mongering in the media...but then he started wandering all over the place.

[Dowding]

Kind of like in Fahrenheit 911. He started with an interesting question about how Saudi Arabia influences US politics but then spent the next 2 hours wandering all over the shop.

[AKIron]

What do you guys expect from Michael Moore? He is a self proclaimed American moron.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
Jackal1.

Im not even sure what your trying to say. You and I exist on the same planet dont we?  

That`s obvious.
  To the second part........... I sorta doubt it. I stick pretty close to mother earth. Is there any intelligent life form on your planet or your perceived , fantasy world?

 Steeeeeeeerrrrrrrrriiiiiiikkk kke 3! Your out.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Jackal1
The criminal is going to get guns no matter what and bans/laws denying the average citizen the right to own and carry plays right into their hands. Guns have been here for centuries and will continue to be here.

OK, you're talking about America again. My thread started as a thread about Britain, where guns can be had on the black market for as little as £40 if you know who to ask. BUT... we have no ingrained gun culture, so we don't have gun shops on every corner, or banks handing out guns as a free gifts as an incentive to potential investors to open deposit accounts.  As Nashwan's figures show, the largest sector of gun crime is with imitation weapons. The fact that it's still extremely difficult to get a real gun might have something to do with that. So I think the gun control laws must be working.

Still laughing at TalonX, who worships a system by which guns are freely available, resulting in 10000 gun slayings annually - and he thinks *I'm* the one who's misguided.

[Torque]

Originally posted by Thrawn
He started off with a interesting hypothesis that it was because the US poplulation is inundated with fear mongering in the media...but then he started wandering all over the place.

it's called "filler".

[Chortle]

Originally posted by Torque
You have discerned the opposite of my jest, the lack of an emoticon was its failing.

I had to google bluing and got this first hit 'Ma Stewarts Whitening Whites safely since 1883' This is Ma -

I freaked out and got overly defensive, I'd be crap with a gun.

[demaw1]

BEETLE.BEETLE.BEETLE......Not again, why oh why do you love guns so much?

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e
OK, you're talking about America again. My thread started as a thread about Britain, where guns can be had on the black market for as little as £40 if you know who to ask. BUT... we have no ingrained gun culture,

No sir. I`m talking about "here" as in planet earth.
  You may not have an ingrained gun culture, but the fact that you have posted that you are seeing crime involving guns where they have been none before disproves your theory in itself.
  Like I said, guns have been here for a long time. They will be more guns. Laws/bans will not work. It only deters those willing to abide by the law the right to defend themself. There is no stopping the manufacture of guns, laws or no laws. There will be more and more. Supply and demand. You even outlaw the making of guns and you have once again fell into the hands of those that don`t play by the rules. Guns, fine quality guns, or easily manufactured. I am supposing you know the history and outcome of our prohibition years here in the states. It only put money in the pockets of those who didn`t care how many laws that were past. Again supply and demand.
  My point is , and I`ll say this as delicately as I can, is that where you are at, you are catching up with other parts of the world. It`s reality setting in and your trying to stick your head in the sand and wish it away.
  Simply put.... It`s not going to work. Never has, never will.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Dowding
Conclusion: The issue isn't 'should we ban guns in America to reduce gun crime?' The issue is "What is wrong with American society to give rise to such disproportionate crime rates compared to other gun owning nations?"

Neither the pro- or anti- types seem to be able to answer that one.

This has always been my point. Here in the USA, it isn't guns, it's the sick-minded, incredibly violent sub-culture. How do we fix it? Good question.... Education, education and more education for anyone who wants it. Tuition free state colleges in all fifty states would help. Teaching moral responsibility in all schools would help, instead of the current "blame anything but me" mindset now preached by the present education establishment. One obstacle will always be the determined idiot. The true definition of an idiot is one who is too stupid to recognize his own condition. We have more than our share in the US education system.

You would think that if schools can teach 12 year-olds about condoms, when only a tiny percentage may need them, you would think that the same self-righteous educators would want to teach basic gun safety when 50% of all American homes have a gun.... But no, that's entire too logical. But then again, educators have never been accused of using logic to any noteworthy degree, have they?

My regards,

Widewing

[Maverick]

Toad,

Spook has made his position clear. It's pretty much the same as beetls. The population cannot be trusted. They must be managed for thier own good. Aparently Australia feels that thier police are not there to protect and serve, they are there to insure the population is carefuly kept in bounds.

Actual lack of misdeed by the vast majority of gun owners is immaterial. All must suffer for the misdeed or potential misdeed of a few.