Don't get it -- what's wrong with MA?

[Westy]

"MAybe some of the more vocal players who hate flying in the MA these days should take the time to train new players to want to fly fighters for the joy of the fight, and there by change it back to the way it was "


Sorry. I don't have the time, the patience or the inclination.  IMO it's also a bit like trying to teach carp to be salmon.   Most of them are content to swimming with the school simply making circles in the fish pond.  Too few seek to take on the challenge of trying to make it up river - even if you offer to hold thier hand.

[eskimo2]

The question of if there is something wrong with the MA should be answered by those who have played many other online games.  Does AH have a high concentration of jerks, or do we have a typically diverse population.  I can’t answered this because the only other online game that I have played was Warbirds and the last time I played was the day before AH went Beta.

Anyone else have some insight to this question?

eskimo

[DoKGonZo]

It's a lot of things. Right now the behavior itself is self-perpetuating because there's no reason for players to change.

Some of the factors I see as impacting MA play include:

- The game rewards individual kill streaks, regardless of how they're obtained. The brag messages in this case. Easiest way to get a "wtg" is to vultch a field - so why work any harder? For "gamers" this makes a difference. At the same time, gamers also like squads/clans and this should become more of a focus.

- The mechanics of field capture turn the activity into either a vultch opportunity, a GV-killing snooze-fest, or an unopposed steamroller. There've been lots of suggestions on how to change this. You'll always need numbers to win, but right now the numbers don't need to be terribly well organized or skillful - so no one really improves or learns a damn thing.

- Many, many little imbalances and quirks which people play "down" to because it's easier. Shooting down CV's and CA's with cannons, heavy bomber formations at 500 feet, GV's of all types which at times are all but immune to attack from the air, HO's are just too easy as are long range shots beyond 400 yds, too many pork-n-auger opportunities which keep many freelancers in the role of nuisances who die after their 2nd pass on the base.

- Not enough change. This is a huge thing which is tough for HTC to cope with because they are a small company. But history has shown that player numbers increase and idiotic stuff declines when there's something new added to the game. New planes, new capture rules, new features, etc. - new maps don't count because the game itself doesn't change and the maps are all so tightly packed anyway. If the game stands still, players will find and use the easiest paths to "success" - and that path is as often as not harmful to overall gameplay. (Those old enough can recall the old "radar runners" from AW which just made the arena a total bore.)


So, again, it's a lot of little things that don't change. The good thing is they're easy to fix - even if only one at a time.

[anton]

I would pay $30 monthly for the "old gameplay" I used to enjoy.

Back about 2 years ago, I posted a thread with the idea of "AH2 Premium" which was one of my initial ideas to combat the noticeable decline of gameplay. My thought was to create another arena where Air Combat was more the focus, make it available to people willing to pay $30, & keep the MA as it is/was.

As you can immagine, I recieved several agreements, and a vourage of rants & raves about how money doesnt eqaute to good gameplay, yada yadda yadda.

I was just thinking, what if HTC created a whole nother game for us die hard combat guys, then they could have the best of both worlds.  Air Quake & a Flight Combat Sim.  Obviously CT didnt attract the numbers as it was percieved to, whats next?

I will be spending some $150 on a new game & wheel type controller for my new game, cause im no longer having fun with my old ones. Thats the Facts. (oven timer buzzes in background),  I have to go now, Dales chicken pot-pie is done cooking, Hes gotta eat ya know.


Anton

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by anton
I was just thinking, what if HTC created a whole nother game for us die hard combat guys, then they could have the best of both worlds.  Air Quake & a Flight Combat Sim.  Obviously CT didnt attract the numbers as it was percieved to, whats next?

Running from guys in a faster plane is now air combat?

-- Todd/Leviathn

[DoKGonZo]

It comes down to balance points:

- How do you reward and encourage team play without alienating freelancers and new players?

- How do you limit suicide attacks without making people play too defensively?

- How do you promote and reward skillfull play without leading people to use vultching and Horde tactics as the easiest way to gain "status?"

- How do you promote an environment where the two weaker countries attack the stronger, instead of the other way around?

- How to you make base/city/whatever capture possible for a dozen well-organized players, yet difficult enough for a 40-player drool squad to give defenders some kind of chance?

And, of course, there are others ... but these are what come to mind at this hour of the morning.

Based on what most of us see in the MA every night, these balance points are not where the could or should be for the MA to live up to its potential. And the longer things stay tipped the way they are, the more the bad habits will become ingrained in people's behaviors - so that positive changes will be met with a hail of whines because the "accepted" paths to "success" will be threatened - regardless of how infantile and moronic those existing paths may be.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Based on what most of us see in the MA every night, these balance points are not where the could or should be for the MA to live up to its potential. And the longer things stay tipped the way they are, the more the bad habits will become ingrained in people's behaviors - so that positive changes will be met with a hail of whines because the "accepted" paths to "success" will be threatened - regardless of how infantile and moronic those existing paths may be.

We are already generations into ingraining these methods of gameplay into the players.  I can't imagine at this point any major change in gameplay that won't be met with a great deal of resistence from those affected -- particularly changes that alter the incentive structure for vulching, hording, etc.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Traveler]

Simulation:
1.   The act or process of simulating.
2.   An imitation; a sham.
3.   Assumption of a false appearance.
4.   
a.   Imitation or representation, as of a potential situation or in experimental testing.
b.   Representation of the operation or features of one process or system through the use of another: computer simulation of an in-flight emergency.

AH2 is what the people using it, make of it.  The truth is fighter pilots of WWII were trained to avoid dog fights.  And only engaged when they held a tactical advantage.  If engaged by the nme yes, they fought for their lives.  But they didn’t fly single plane missions, the majority of flights consisted of fights of 4 or more aircraft.  No lone wolfs.  AH and AH2 is a game built around WWII equipment.  If it was a WWII Simulator, you would get one life and you would have to sit around and wait to be assigned to a patrol or a strike mission.  When you got your orders you would patrol your sector or fly the assigned mission.  Each mission would take hours to fly.   But AH2 is not a Simulation, it’s a business, a business that has as it’s product  the idea that you are flying a WWII Air, Land and Sea Combat Simulator.  They through in a bit of capture the flag and divided the players into three camps, just to make the game interesting.  

The Hoard as many people have referred to large groups of players attacking one target. Is I believe an attempt to organize a mission against a target.  The fact that they more closely resemble a mob then a military unit attacking a target is because that’s exactly what their mentality is, that of a mob.  That’s why in many cases the hoard does not achieve their objective.

Capturing a base in  AH2 environment  requires larger numbers of players to coordinate their efforts to capture an airfield. The towns re-generate much faster, take longer to knock down.  What we have generally on line is small groups of players attempting to band together, however, what we end up with is a large numbers of unorganized players flying around an nme airfield, some are trying for a base capture, some are just looking for a furball, some are vulching.  After hours of this you can over fly the area and see that the town is at about 100% and the hangers are up and many of the original attackers have grown board and moved on to another airfield. There is no military chain of command. Nor are there many attempts to define targets and plan detailed missions.  That would require self imposed discipline and that’s something that you will never get a mob to do.  

Most players are in to much of a hurry to fly off and die.  They have no idea how to use the plot board to see detailed flight plans of routs and alts to targets. Or understand the purpose of coordinated attacks by multiple elements. That again is something that mobs are not good at.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
We are already generations into ingraining these methods of gameplay into the players.  I can't imagine at this point any major change in gameplay that won't be met with a great deal of resistence from those affected -- particularly changes that alter the incentive structure for vulching, hording, etc.
 

So you're saying this is as good as it's ever gonna get?

The danger is that numbers and per-player hours seem to be down (at least based on what folks are posting in the forums and what the arena tallies show). The problem with the horde/vultch/pork game is it don't stay interesting that long. If there's enough new players to keep the mill churning, then there's no reason for HTC to change. But if things drop off steeply again after the novelty of the Ki-84 and B-24 wears off, then that's a bad business trend.

[A_Clown]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Running from guys in a faster plane is now air combat?

-- Todd/Leviathn

LOL, this guys been flyin for years & still rides in a trainer. Now THERE is a classic example of path of lest resistance. I suppose hed really like for A Yak Vs SpitV turnfight, anyone would, except the yak pilot.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by A_Clown
LOL, this guys been flyin for years & still rides in a trainer. Now THERE is a classic example of path of lest resistance. I suppose hed really like for A Yak Vs SpitV turnfight, anyone would, except the yak pilot.

Running away from a Spit and bragging about your ability to do so does not constitute air combat.  Even the act of running does not demonstrate your skill since you are in a faster plane that, by all accounts, should be able to do that anyway.  Maybe AH would be more fun for you if you actually took some chances and attempted to push the Yak's envelope.  As it is, you flew it conservatively and got bored.  

Enjoy your time away from the game.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
So you're saying this is as good as it's ever gonna get?

[/b]

Well, no, but I am saying that any major changes at this point will result in the kinds of persistent whining we witnessed with the ENY limiter.  Lots of people will threaten to leave or outright leave as a result, for better or for worse.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Elfie]

Many players can't just dogfight untill they puke

I can!!  

[Seeker]

Regarding the "undisciplined horde":

I don't think we'll ever see people taking the time to generate nor follow complex missions with target assignments etc. as long as "mission spying" is both possible and unpunished.

It's seems a shame to me that all the effort that went into making the mission planner never lives up to it's potential because of this.

Simply being able to password protect a mission would go along way towords better use of the mission planner; on a squad level at least.

It also seems to me we've gone 180 degrees from my early days in AH; when there was much moaning about rotating squads (and indeed Hitech posted to the effect that he was; back in the day, considering prohibiting squads from country rotation) to the current position where side switching is approaching coersion.

Numbers/force balance (they aren't always the same); side cohesion and effective use of assets: these are the factors which influence hoard behaviour.

However; strictly personaly speaking; the two main factors which are influencing my own logged on hours are comunity and comms.

I've faced many periods of burnout in AW; but loved the community. The community kept me hanging around long enough for the urge to bite again. But it was a managed community; with published levels and standards of behaviour; Kesmai (Mage) was tight on the community. Here; any thing goes. I often wonder how HTC has manged to keep any French customers at all!

And communications; to whit: Vox. I must admit I'm getting really; really tired of unsquelchable range vox. I log on to "do a bit of WWII"; and I either get f.ck this and f.ck that blaring out my speakers; or any attempt at immersion is ruined by a non periodic piece of Bush/Kerry vitriole.

Why is it so hard to get range vox squelchable?

[Elfie]

Vox. I must admit I'm getting really; really tired of unsquelchable range vox. I log on to "do a bit of WWII"; and I either get f.ck this and f.ck that blaring out my speakers

I ended up squelching a guy the other night that wouldnt quit swearing on range channel. I asked him twice very politely to refrain from swearing because I have two young girls in my home. He ignored my requests. Interesting to note that later that same night one of his squaddies exploded an F4U after I shot its wing off and called it down on range channel......great group of guys eh?