Author Topic: 101st:"We were never ordered to search"  (Read 2078 times)

Offline VOR

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2004, 07:00:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
VOR, Widewing....no comment?


My above post addresses yours although I didn't quote you. Trying to eat pumpkin pie and argue at the same time, so I'm kinda busy.

Offline rpm

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2004, 07:11:03 PM »
Widewing, using the Gulf War as a comparison does not work in this case. We did not stay as an occupying force then. If we had, we would'nt be in this mess now.

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Offline Gunslinger

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2004, 07:25:00 PM »
Well who's to say that the explosives were even in there to begin with.  Looters usually don't have tractor trailers and fork lifts!

RPM give it up the FACTS are not in your favor!

EDIT:

Have you read anything AT ALL about the actual invasion?  This was a blitzkreig (SP)  Manuver warefare at it's finest.  Move as fast as you can and supply on the go.  There was no "occupying force" at first, the idea was to kill the aposing army as fast as possible and that's exactly what they did.

Offline Widewing

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2004, 07:25:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
VOR, Widewing....no comment?


From defendamerica.mil, dated 10/19/04 (that's days before the current stupidity came into being)

TAJI, Iraq, Oct. 18, 2004 — More than 400 57 mm rockets, 7,275 rounds of 14.5 mm anti-aircraft ammunition and one U.S. tube-launched optically tracked wire guided, or TOW, missile were just the tip of the iceberg in terms of munitions uncovered during a recent weapons cache discovery.

“We would begin digging in a new area and we just kept finding stuff,” said the 2nd Battalion, 7th Calvary Regiment senior Iraqi National Guard advisor Capt. Mark Leslie, of the 1st Team’s 39th Brigade Combat Team.

The discovery began with a tip from a reluctant informant. Rumors had circulated within the Iraqi National Guard camp of a citizen who knew where a very large cache of weapons was located, but fear for his life kept him from speaking with Multinational Forces.

“Once word got back to us, we began trying to get soldiers with the ING to bring this guy to talk to us. But the gentleman just wasn’t having any of it,” said Iraqi National Guard advisor Staff Sgt. Ronald Denton, of 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment’s Headquarters Company.

Known locally as a fair and honest person, the commander of Company D, 307th Iraqi National Guard Battalion finally convinced the man to speak with him and to ultimately work with Multinational Forces to recover the cache.

“Had it not been for the reputation of Lt. Col. Waleed within the community, I really don’t think we would have ever found the cache,” Denton said.

Using the information, Company D, 307th Iraqi National Guard Battalion, supported by troopers from 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment gathered up detection equipment and headed to the location.

“The location of the first site put us in the far northern region of 2-7 Cav.’s AO (area of operation),” explained Iraqi National Guard advisor Sgt. 1 st Class Robert Haney of Company A, 2nd Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment. “The initial cache discovery was exactly where the informant said it would be. But as we started spreading out, we kept finding more cache sites.”

Fanning out from the original location, soldiers eventually discovered 12 sites, each within 1 kilometer of the original site. The total amount of items discovered was staggering: 12 SS-30 127 mm rockets with launchers, 20 rocket mortars, multiple varying intensity mortar rounds and other various armaments.

As the soldiers began loading the discovered items for transport back to Camp Taji, the Iraqi National Guard troops noticed that something just didn’t seem right.

“You’ve really got to attribute the success of this mission to the ING,” said Leslie. “They live in the areas we’re going to, so they know when something looks off. People are more willing to come up to them, talk to them and give them information we would probably not get. As we were drawing close to moving back to Taji they came up to us and voiced their concerns, and asked that we increase our search area a bit more.”

Working off the Iraqi National Guard members’ suspicion, the troopers set to increasing their search radius, moving further and further away from the initial site. Soon enough, the search paid off.

“We found what appeared to be another significant cache location just a few (kilometers) away from the first sight,” said Leslie. “At that point, a quick look at our maps and we realized we were moving outside the 1st Calvary Division’s AO into areas maintained by the 1st Infantry Division.”

Securing the site for the evening, wheels were set in motion to secure permission to cross assigned area-of-operation boundaries.

“As soon as we got back to Camp Taji, we started contacting 2nd of the 108th (the command responsible for the area) to get permission to go into their AO,” Leslie said.

That unit, a New York National Guard infantry regiment attached to the 1st Infantry Division, not only granted permission, but also sent elements to assist in the security and excavation of the site.

“This is how joint operations are supposed to work,” said Haney. “You request permission, it gets approved and they send soldiers down to help with the mission. That’s Army teamwork!”

The second day of search operations revealed a much more significant find in terms of items seized as well the five individuals who were detained for later questioning.

“We found so many mortar rounds, it was just unreal,” said Denton, adding that an extensive amount of material to make improvised explosive devices was also discovered.

Included in the discovery that day was more than 150 pounds of PE-4 explosive, the explosive favored by anti-Iraqi forces to make vehicle-borne bombs that have targeted Multinational Forces and civilians alike.

Three heavy dump trucks were needed to haul the entire cache contents back to Camp Taji, where it will be disposed of.

“Everything came together like it’s supposed to on this operation,” said Leslie. “Everybody worked together in a joint (operation) that should make residents of Camp Taji and Camp Anaconda sleep a little easier— knowing we have denied the enemy these tools of destruction.”
 
See it here.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline VOR

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2004, 07:30:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
We did not stay as an occupying force then. If we had, we would'nt be in this mess now.



I have to agree on the point of not finishing what we started back in GW1. It seems like it would have prevented alot of grief, at least on the surface. I'd like to know what the *real* reason for pulling our punches was.

As for the pie, yes it's piping hot fresh from the oven with a side of vanilla ice cream. BUT...let's get back to the topic. Who (if anyone) can reasonably be blamed for the looting of these weapons? If it's a simple case of knowing they were there and doing nothing to destroy or secure them, then I'm guilty along with thousands of others of identical A) Crimes or B) Tactical Error. The fact is that Iraq was absolutely covered in the stuff left behind by a retreating/ destroyed army, and it would have been impossible to secure it all while on the move. Whether or not this situation was projected or played a part in the decision making process of the war planning staff is a question CBS or embedded NBC reporters have yet to address.

Offline Widewing

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2004, 07:33:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Widewing, using the Gulf War as a comparison does not work in this case. We did not stay as an occupying force then. If we had, we would'nt be in this mess now.



rpm, you are being obtuse. Why don't you just admit that you have no idea what you are talking about? It's obvious to the rest of us who understand these things.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline DREDIOCK

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2004, 08:24:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
If 101 says he searched that complex and there were no stockpiles of explosives then we must believe him.
But thats not what he says. He says this.
"there were plenty of units behind us so i dont think that there was much looting of the ammo dump after we left the area."

what happens when we assume 101?

"and how many men do you think it would take to guard all this stuff ?
Iraq, It turns out, was one Huge ammo dump.
"

well whose fault was it that there were not enought troops to perfom that necessary task? Was it RPMs fault? Was it kerrys fault?
Who set the force levels? Who thought shock and awe would turn a whole nation into quivering subservient republicans?

The administration has insisted at every turn befor and after that they had enought men. Are you saying they didnt have enough men?

Between the idiot republicans that think that only republicans serve their country and idiot republicans that think that only idiots serve their country, we sure have a nice collection of idiots here.


Nice Democratic rhetoric. But that's about all I believe it is.

I don't remember hearing anyone in the military saying they didn't have enough men during the advance. And judging from the rapidity of their advance It doesn't look to me as if they needed them.
Its wasn't until long after we reached Baghdad I remember anyone saying they needed more troops. And even then it wasn't a HUGE outcry. Most of the commanders I saw interviewed when asked the question of the number of troops claimed they thought they had enough
You want to blame anyone for our Small Military force you can start with the previous administration for its downsizing. That's when the troop reduction actually started. Or doesn't anyone remember the arguments about base closing.

On top of that I saw an interview this MA with a reporter that was there who said. Remember this place is HUGE, Roughly the size of central park.
We saw some bunkers that were still locked with locks on the door and many more that had been hit by US airstrikes and we could see the munitions inside.

Also remember there was quite a bit of time between the time the Iraqi forces pulled out of the area and the time when US troops arrived. Nobody knows what or how much they were able to take with them when they left.

If in the event it was incompetence and our fault the place wasn't guarded it Still wasn't Bush's Fault but the fault of the Military commanders as that type of thing would be too far down the chain of command for it to be Bush's responsibility.
 And these would be the very same incompetent commanders Kerry would be inheriting in his military.
And even then you cant plan for every single contingency

But I highly doubt its that.
Simple reason.
360 TONS doesn't just walk off in peoples backpacks. And doesn't just disappear in a few hours
It would take many people and a considerable amount of transportation and time to move that kind of material.
something like that isn't going to go unnoticed. 2 Tons I'd say yea ok
10 or even 20 tons is possible, But 360??
Heh, I don't think so.
I'd say odds are just because of the sheer numbers. The stuff was moved well before our forces got there.

Oh and in case any of you don't know this is hardly new news.
This actually was reported some 18 months ago.
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Offline rpm

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2004, 08:44:22 PM »
Quote
That unit, a New York National Guard infantry regiment attached to the 1st Infantry Division, not only granted permission, but also sent elements to assist in the security and excavation of the site.

“This is how joint operations are supposed to work,” said Haney. “You request permission, it gets approved and they send soldiers down to help with the mission. That’s Army teamwork!”
 
EXACTLY! That's how it is suppossed to work. That is NOT how it worked earlier when plans were not in place to handle the capture. That's why weapons caches were looted. It is just common sense to place a guard on them to prevent any Tom, Dick, or Haji from wandering in there. There was no civilian authority like the local cops to stop thieves. There was only us and we did not do the job. Our own troops have said that. Someone has to be held accountable.

Those that say 300 tons is a monsterous task to haul away are fooling themselves. You can put over a ton in a small toyota 1/2 ton pickup if you want to bad enough. I have seen it done. You can bet there are more than 300 of them in Iraq. We were not in place as a peacekeeping force when this occured. We were attacking military positions. There was inadequate planning.
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Offline VOR

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2004, 10:17:23 PM »
RPM, the question of who the real boogeyman is hasn't been answered. Don't keep it a secret..we're waiting on pins and needles for a real Matlock ending to this mystery.

Offline Flit

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2004, 10:24:00 PM »
The Russians did it
http://www.drudgereport.com

Offline VOR

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2004, 10:27:14 PM »
Flit, I actually clicked on the link before I knew what it was. I suddenly feel dirty...like I need to run antivirus on the comp and take a shower.

Offline Elfie

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2004, 10:46:54 PM »
Loading over 300 tons of HE into the back of Toyota 1/2 trucks....yeah....that'd be a monstrous task, and one that wouldnt go unnoticed :rofl

Even if you gave each truck twice as much cargo as it was designed to carry, thats still 360 trucks. Not to mention the dozens of people required to do the loading. 360 tons is alot of weight to move and would require a significant amount of time to load that many trucks.

You might want to edit your post rpm....give it a bit more thought next time  ;)
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Offline rpm

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2004, 10:51:50 PM »
C'mon Elfie, use your brain. If every cop in Colorado disappeared, how long would it take to clean out WalMart with a mob.
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Offline Flit

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2004, 11:03:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by VOR
Flit, I actually clicked on the link before I knew what it was. I suddenly feel dirty...like I need to run antivirus on the comp and take a shower.

:rofl
info is info

Offline Elfie

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101st:"We were never ordered to search"
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2004, 11:05:26 PM »
Which Walmart?  :D

Seriously, that isnt even a good comparison. With the amount of traffic in just the Denver metro area alone no one would notice the extra traffic. You arent going to move 360 Toyota pick-ups in a war zone with out being noticed.

You ever see footage on the news of people looting? You rarely see any organization amongst the looters, its more or less everyone grab what you can and run home with it. When you do see looters organized its in small groups.

Something you are forgetting, the 101st did a cursory inspection of the site and didnt find any explosives.

You remind me of a tv commercial that goes....blah blah blah blah Free Shreck 2 DVD blah blah blah blah.....you only hear what you want to hear, or in this case read.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.