La-7.....frusteration.....rising.....

[Urchin]

Yea, actually it is lol... the last 3 or 4 people that asked me for help kept losing me off the merge... and it isn't like I do anything extraordinarily weird off the merge... usually just a standard immelman.

I know at least some of it has to be my fault, I used to have the idea that people did want to improve at A2A fighting (any style, be it energy or turnfighting.. as long as people are fighting, I'm happy).  I've become somewhat dissillusioned of that idea over the past couple of years, as the preeminent form of "fighting" seems to revolve around making sure the group you are flying with is significantly bigger, higher, and faster than whatever group you expect to run into.  

I think that may have something to do with the Hit N Run style of fighting that seems so prevelant when you run into someone flying solo.  Typically they are in a fast plane (dora, la7, p51, typh), make one pass and run for the hills... they may not be running.  They might just not have any idea where the hell you got off to while you were dodging their pass, I dunno.

[Kweassa]

Its just what the MA has changed into Urchin.

 People nowadays play to win. As long as they win, they don't care if there are any good fights during the process or not.

 Welcome to the world where massive numbers of average guys steamroll the skillful few - a warring world.

 
ps) but frankly, I don't think that this new MA is worse than the old MA. Its just that there are a lot of ideas with the strat/organization system that can be tinkered with, to make a 'warring environment' more fun... except the strat system just never seems to change.

[AKFokerFoder+]

So what happens when another plane comes along co-e or with E , you run until you die ?

You should be able to either egress or go guns defensive long enough for someone to blow the bogey off your six.  The 190 has a great roll rate, and given enough rudder will bleed speed quick enough to cause overhoots.  There is also the split-s that can buy you time, and believe it or not some people can get thrown off by yo yo's occasionally.  Sometimes you get shot down, it is after all a game.

Was any one asking what cherry picking was?  

As I have often stated, I am a shameless cherry picker, and I vulch too, I'd drown kittens and strafe hospitals if it were part of the game  

I fondly remember that spit, I had just dived down to clear a KI84 off a Knights 6, the KI easly broke off, and I didn't try to force a shot, I was a little over 400 mph, I quickly avoided a HO by a Spit when I saw the other spittie doing a climb n stall.  I pulled up gentley, lined him up and blew off his wing at under d200.    Now THAT is a great cherry pick

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Urchin
Yea, actually it is lol... the last 3 or 4 people that asked me for help kept losing me off the merge... and it isn't like I do anything extraordinarily weird off the merge... usually just a standard immelman.

I know at least some of it has to be my fault, I used to have the idea that people did want to improve at A2A fighting (any style, be it energy or turnfighting.. as long as people are fighting, I'm happy).  I've become somewhat dissillusioned of that idea over the past couple of years, as the preeminent form of "fighting" seems to revolve around making sure the group you are flying with is significantly bigger, higher, and faster than whatever group you expect to run into.  

I think that may have something to do with the Hit N Run style of fighting that seems so prevelant when you run into someone flying solo.  Typically they are in a fast plane (dora, la7, p51, typh), make one pass and run for the hills... they may not be running.  They might just not have any idea where the hell you got off to while you were dodging their pass, I dunno.

Well, I guess you and I agree on a lot more than I thought.

One reason I keep suggesting a "1942" plane set to rotate through the MA is that it'd give people a chance to explore the aspects of the game beyond the 589 mph vultch pass on an enemy field. All those planes are slower, accelerate worse, turn better, and generally more forgiving at low speeds. Alas, no one wants to give up their uber rides.

I'm no fan of Horde Warrior either ... it was one of the biggest reasons I left AW all those many years ago. No one would leave their home turf unless they had 40 guys around 'em at 30K.

I think the timidness from pilots cruising solo as much related to the Horde mentality as anything. Any prolonged fight near an enemy base is likely to turn into a gang bang.

You have spotted the lack of SA, but what I see a lot of is a lack of understanding of the planes themselves. I get an inordinate number of deliberate manouever kills on folks who just don't seem to grasp what their planes can do and where their hard deck is.

[thrila]

Dok i don't believe that would change things.  People would just switch to the fastest ride of that period.  They would still never fly their plane to it's full potential.

I think it's true to some extent that a pilot must a) know his own limitations and b) his planes limitations.  A lot of people never learn either  because they run at the first hint of losing their adv.  

I personally don't mind when people run when they lose their adv.  Though i do when they run before they lose it.  Too many times have i seen a con dive on me,  when they notice i've spotted them they level out and fly off out of icon range.  Why???


back on topic: la7 is by far the best plane in the MA.

[4510]

Originally posted by Urchin
That is probably because a competent "knife fighter" can switch between E fighting and angles fighting with ease, whereas a "competent" BnZ'er has usually gone that route because he found angles fighting to hard.

I'm not sure I would agree to such a generalizaton Urch.  In some cases it may be so.... but I think it also plays to what the individual finds as fun.  Some knife fighters simply do not have the SA to avoid getting ganged, some don't have the temperment for the "chess game" of the BnZ'er.  Heck some BnZ'ers have no SA.  

However, someone who primarily knife fights going head to head with someone who primarily BnZs or does the SA game.... I am going to lean to the knife fighter... especially if it is a 1 v 1 duel and the winner is determined by one or the other being shot down.

[4510]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+

You will probably never find me on a duelling ladder, but you may find me on your six

Actually my MA flying style was more like your style.  So I MIGHT find you on my six... the question would have to be asked... would you have surprised me... or would I have had enough E etc. to make you being there inconsequential.  

[Urchin]

It depends.. 1v1, the single "best" way to fight is to conserve your energy.  If a guy that does the E-fighting bit and is good enough to stay behind someone once he's leeched all their energy away, he is well-neigh unbeatable.  

If they are really good at ekeing every last bit of energy out of the initial zoom (off the merge), and then capable of maintaining that initial advantage they are also very tough to beat if you are fighting them in the same plane.

The only time a "knife-fighter" is really at an advantage over a BnZ type pilot is where they are forced to fight, either by having multiple cons in the area, or by one con who can force you to fight by staying faster than you.

[4510]

Originally posted by Urchin
I don't really think anyone "fears" cherrypicking Bore N Zoomers, no matter how "good" they are.  

I think the strongest emotion most people playing the game to fight have for them is a mild sort of contempt.

That would be a good subject for a poll !

Personally I can admire someone's ability regardless of their flying style.  Back in AW there was a guy named Aerobat !  He was purely a B n Z guy.  But he wasn't a "cherry picker" per se.  That being, he didn't get his kills just by whacking an engaged opponent.  Rather he hunted the fringe of the fight and engaged singles.  He played his B n Z style til he no longer had an advantage and then he simply hit the door.  Was almost ALWAYS in a P51D.  Unless you had alt... he was VERY tough to corner... because he didn't stick around if he didn't have clear advantage.
His K/D was phenomenal.

Zazen used to fly purely B n Z.  He was one of the best pure marksmen I've seen in the game.  Would make shots I would never think possible.  Again, as you say, a lot of folks reviled him for his style.  (well.. probably for his channel one rants as well)  So much so that in AW folks would use second accounts to follow him around so folks could try and catch him.  But few could match him at his SA game.

OTOH list of "famous" knife fighters is long and distinguished.  Just different approaches to the game.

[4510]

Originally posted by Urchin
Yea, actually it is lol... the last 3 or 4 people that asked me for help kept losing me off the merge... and it isn't like I do anything extraordinarily weird off the merge... usually just a standard immelman.

I know at least some of it has to be my fault, I used to have the idea that people did want to improve at A2A fighting (any style, be it energy or turnfighting.. as long as people are fighting, I'm happy).  I've become somewhat dissillusioned of that idea over the past couple of years, as the preeminent form of "fighting" seems to revolve around making sure the group you are flying with is significantly bigger, higher, and faster than whatever group you expect to run into.  

I think that may have something to do with the Hit N Run style of fighting that seems so prevelant when you run into someone flying solo.  Typically they are in a fast plane (dora, la7, p51, typh), make one pass and run for the hills... they may not be running.  They might just not have any idea where the hell you got off to while you were dodging their pass, I dunno.

The horde thing plays a big part of this IMHO.  If in a fast plane and you are working a turn fighter... you can't try and play the "drive 'em to the deck" and then see if you can finish them... rather you get about half way through the process and here come a bunch of his buddies and it is time to boogie.

[4510]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
You should be able to either egress or go guns defensive long enough for someone to blow the bogey off your six.  The 190 has a great roll rate, and given enough rudder will bleed speed quick enough to cause overhoots.  There is also the split-s that can buy you time, and believe it or not some people can get thrown off by yo yo's occasionally.  Sometimes you get shot down, it is after all a game.

Well actually, as someone who liked to fly to survive... what is very frustrating is to play out the hand as long as you can... and then see it is time to leave.  So off I go.... followed by someone who could care less if he dies.... so he will chase me for five sectors... fly through ack.... run himself out of gas.... all in an attempt to prevent me from landing.  He can't catch me... so he only hopes his gas lasts longer than mine.

[4510]

Originally posted by Urchin
It depends.. 1v1, the single "best" way to fight is to conserve your energy.  If a guy that does the E-fighting bit and is good enough to stay behind someone once he's leeched all their energy away, he is well-neigh unbeatable.  

If they are really good at ekeing every last bit of energy out of the initial zoom (off the merge), and then capable of maintaining that initial advantage they are also very tough to beat if you are fighting them in the same plane.

The only time a "knife-fighter" is really at an advantage over a BnZ type pilot is where they are forced to fight, either by having multiple cons in the area, or by one con who can force you to fight by staying faster than you.

I agree in an MA.. but in a duel... where SOMEONE must be shot down to decide the result.... a good Knife Fighter can be just as successful or even more so than the BnZ guy.

[nopoop]

Originally posted by Kweassa
People nowadays play to win. As long as they win, they don't care if there are any good fights

Win defined by score. There you have it.

If I cared about score, I'd have quit along time ago. I care about fights. Still a group around with the same docterine.

To each his own.

[Stang]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
You will probably never find me on a duelling ladder, but you may find me on your six

Get on Soup's six and yer probably gonna get showered with 20mm's from me  

[AKFokerFoder+]

Originally posted by 4510
Actually my MA flying style was more like your style. So I MIGHT find you on my six... the question would have to be asked... would you have surprised me... or would I have had enough E etc. to make you being there inconsequential.

Excellent understanding of SA!  You are not far from enlightenment, Nirvana may be attained Grasshopper

Originaly posted by Stang
Get on Soup's six and yer probably gonna get showered with 20mm's from me

Ah! Ah gang banger, ah I mean one who flys 'Loose Duece"???

You are to be commended Sir, too few actually fly with a real wingman, in the MA most just mill around the area together.  Wing tactics are the ultimate way to get a bogey off your butt