Author Topic: La-7.....frusteration.....rising.....  (Read 5339 times)

Offline Karnak

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La-7.....frusteration.....rising.....
« on: November 08, 2004, 10:43:37 AM »
I am having a heck of a time dealing with the La-7.  It just seems unbelievably good.

I switched to the Ki-84 this Tour and am finding that the La-7 is simply a superior fighter in all ways.  I cannot (and have not) defeated an La-7 that knew I was there.  This looks like it will be the first Tour in a LONG time that I end with a negative Kill/Death ratio against the La-7 even though I have switched from the quasi-fighter Mosquito to the true fighter Ki-84.

It would be one thing if the La-7s would rely on boom and zoom tactics utilizing their superior speed or keep the fights fast where the Ki-84's controls are very heavy, but they don't even need to do that.  The La-7 simply out turns the Ki-84, even once the Ki-84 gets it's flaps out.  How the La-7 with those dinky little wings can out turn the Ki-84 I just don't know, but it does.  My aircraft will be shuddering on the edge of a stall and the La-7 will still turn inside me.  Watching over my shoulder it doesn't seem that the La-7 drivers are doing anything semi-fancy either, they're just holding the stick as far back as they can too.

What tactics should the Ki-84 use to deal with the La-7?  How do you deal with an aircraft that is faster, better climbing, tighter turning, faster accelerating and better rolling?
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Offline slimm50

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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2004, 10:52:59 AM »
One thing, too, I've noticed about the Ki84 is the flaps won't deploy til my speed has bled to somewhere around 120 mph. Seems like the  lala can deploy flaps at just under 150 mph. Am I off, here, or has anyone noticed the same thing? Last night I tangled with a couple of lalas (they are very popular, it seems) in a F6F and in a spit: the outcome was not pretty, from my perspective. It's been several days since I even tried a Ki84, since my first 3-4 sorites in it were rather unfruitful.

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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2004, 10:55:53 AM »
Quote
How do you deal with an aircraft that is faster, better climbing, tighter turning, faster accelerating and better rolling?


I try to HO 'em... :aok

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2004, 11:00:16 AM »
Ki-84 can put flaps out at around 167 to 160  for 1st notch

Karnak, the La7 is somewhat easy to defeat unless the guy flying it is a good stick......... Ki-84 should have no problem with it under 165 mph..........

I understand your frustration but think you would better your self if you spent some time in the DA with Shane, Nomak, Levi, and others..........film your fights and post them, ask people to view over your films and give you pointers on where you can accelerate your skills advantage....

everyone at one point or another hits a plateau / brick wall and needs a helping hand to get past it.......it is nothing to ask for some help, I do the same at times....
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Offline Chitownflyer

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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2004, 11:05:17 AM »
LA7's are easy to kill...

assuming your a good Hog driver..
the fu4-1 is particularly sutiable for la7 killing.. athough,  fu4-c and fu4-d are good.

Now the La7 can't roll or sissor very well as well as fly slow speed...

I find La7s drivers trying to do both and most time I able to kill them ... even if they are on my six... a few fast sissors and hunter becomes the hunted...

any hog or fwa5 or Jug driver that knows his business should be able to kill la7's with out much trouble...
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Offline Zanth

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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2004, 11:08:22 AM »
"The La-7 simply out turns the Ki-84, even once the Ki-84 gets it's flaps out. "

I humbly (however strongly) disagree.  In my experience the KI84 well out classes either the la7 and la5.  Just my opinion, but overall stats (and even my sorry numbers) seem to support this.

The La-7 has 237 kills and has been killed 250 times against the Ki-84-Ia.

The La-5FN has 32 kills and has been killed 53 times against the Ki-84-Ia.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2004, 11:14:56 AM »
Chitownflyer,

The F4U-1 is easy to kill La-7s in.  It out turns them.  I don't enjoying flying the F4U very much.  Thanks for posting to crow about how great your fighter is.


Zanth,

I can't agree with that and posting numbers like that says nothing about how the Ki-84 won those fights.  Every time I have gotten into a fight with the La-7 using the Ki-84, either verticle or horizontal, the La-7 turns better than the Ki-84.  As I said, I'll have flaps out (meaning below 167mph), using the rudder and shuddering at the edge of the stall and the La-7 will have a gun solution on me within 270°.
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2004, 11:17:47 AM »
The La7 in AH2 turns about as well as the Spit 9 does.  The Ki-84 turns slightly better (slow), plus it has outstanding low speed handling.  The Ki-84 can keep its nose up relatively easily at speeds less than 100 mph, giving you a huge advantage in a low speed rolling scissors type fight.  

I've typically found that most La-7s will turn with you until you get close to a firing solution, then they level out and hit the NO2.. I think I'm only like 2-2 against them this tour, in spite of the fact that they are all over the place.  I tend to get killed by more nimble planes in the gangbanging type fight your typical La7 driver prefers.

1v1, if you can get one that is willing to fight, I'd say the best bet is to sucker them into a spiral climb, as tight as you can get.  Just stay out in front of their guns and spiral upward.. you can keep going up and around while they follow you trying to get guns on you.. they'll stall out before you do.  Just make sure you actually do a spiral.. you don't want to be climbing outrageously steep.. they can track you pretty easily doing that.

You have to be pretty quick coming back around though, because as soon as the La-7 stalls the guy will be running.  Ideally, you want to come over the top just before he stalls, and shoot him up as he noses down to dive away.  You won't get a second chance to kill him.. if the La-7 driver has a quarter of a brain you won't even get a first chance, but the spiral climb has worked on every plane I've tried it on so far.

Also... I'm pretty sure the La-7 out turns the F4U by a pretty significant margin in a sustained turn.  The F4U may be able to get inside of a La-7 initially because it bleeds speed so much faster, but once both planes settle into their turns I think the La-7 will turn circles around any F4U.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2004, 11:20:15 AM by Urchin »

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2004, 12:00:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
Also... I'm pretty sure the La-7 out turns the F4U by a pretty significant margin in a sustained turn.  The F4U may be able to get inside of a La-7 initially because it bleeds speed so much faster, but once both planes settle into their turns I think the La-7 will turn circles around any F4U.


what allows the F4U series to turn with the La7 is it bleeds E faster, once you reach near sustained or slower turn speed the La7 comes back on the f4U, as long as you can get him in the first 3 turns or less you ok, if you go beyond this you ( being in the Hog) will have to rely on your roll to reverse direction and cross the La7 up in the scissors maneuver..........this is how I view it anyhow.....
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Offline Zanth

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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2004, 12:37:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
posting numbers like that says nothing about how the Ki-84 won those fights.


Of course the numbers don't tell the whole story - however you can't just go to the other extreme and dismiss them out of hand either.  All sorts of pilots all sorts of flying styles - overall numbers will indeed give you a crude average of what is going on

Picking Spit V because of it's popularity and it's common use as a flat turn fighter.

The La-7 has 191 kills and has been killed 137 times against the Spitfire V.

The Ki-84-Ia has 240 kills and has been killed 239 times against the Spitfire V. (see pretty even)

and just for recap -

The Ki-84-Ia has 252 kills and has been killed 237 times against the La-7.

Offline humble

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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2004, 12:54:06 PM »
Karnak....you need to clarify some stuff...

As a blanket statement your completely wrong...the la-7 simply cant turn with a Ki-84. But without a clip to look at there's no way to offer any feedback on whats going on.

As a general rule the Ki-84 cant roll with an La-7 and is limited with regard to elevator authority at higher speeds. Put those two togeather and the La-7 can manuever out of plane to a Ki very easily. It's very possible that your being yoyo'd to death. When you say you cant kill a Lala I'm assuming your dealing with both positive and neg E situations....are dealing with merges 1 vs 1 or bouncing them or being bounced. I have no trouble at all with la-7's 1 vs 1 in a Ki-61. I posted a clip over in the training forum thats a lala bouncing my Ki...you can see the verticals and rudder he's using...easy to lose that fight.

My guess is your simply carrying to much speed throughout the fight. If you'll post a couple of clips I'm sure TC and others can help you out an awful lot....I put some Ki-61 clips up (the last one is the Ki vs la-7) that could help...also one that is pony vs yak. Hardest thing for many to learn is speed/angles management....if your getting out turned like you say you are then thats probably why.

http://www.azhacker.com/images/Ki61vsla7.ahf
http://www.azhacker.com/images/Ki61.nikki.rev.ahf
http://www.azhacker.com/images/lowponyrev.ahf

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Offline humble

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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2004, 12:56:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zanth
"The La-7 simply out turns the Ki-84, even once the Ki-84 gets it's flaps out. "

I humbly (however strongly) disagree.  In my experience the KI84 well out classes either the la7 and la5.  Just my opinion, but overall stats (and even my sorry numbers) seem to support this.

The La-7 has 237 kills and has been killed 250 times against the Ki-84-Ia.

The La-5FN has 32 kills and has been killed 53 times against the Ki-84-Ia.




:D :D :D

Hehe....

I'd like even one even fight with you in the MA.....

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Offline humble

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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2004, 12:58:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chitownflyer
LA7's are easy to kill...

assuming your a good Hog driver..
the fu4-1 is particularly sutiable for la7 killing.. athough,  fu4-c and fu4-d are good.

Now the La7 can't roll or sissor very well as well as fly slow speed...

I find La7s drivers trying to do both and most time I able to kill them ... even if they are on my six... a few fast sissors and hunter becomes the hunted...

any hog or fwa5 or Jug driver that knows his business should be able to kill la7's with out much trouble...


Actually I'd say its the lack of quality la-7 drivers....if your scissoring an la-7 and winning then your dealing with an awful poor lala driver. You scissor a hog vs a good one and your hog will have an apple in its mouth:)....

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Offline humble

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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2004, 01:06:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Chitownflyer,

The F4U-1 is easy to kill La-7s in.  It out turns them.  I don't enjoying flying the F4U very much.  Thanks for posting to crow about how great your fighter is.


Zanth,

I can't agree with that and posting numbers like that says nothing about how the Ki-84 won those fights.  Every time I have gotten into a fight with the La-7 using the Ki-84, either verticle or horizontal, the La-7 turns better than the Ki-84.  As I said, I'll have flaps out (meaning below 167mph), using the rudder and shuddering at the edge of the stall and the La-7 will have a gun solution on me within 270°.


1st...

The -1 is a great ride but it doesnt out turn an la-7 like the Ki-84 does. In fact its inferior in all ways except roll and dive to the lala. To beat a Co-e la-7 in a -1 hog you need to beat the other pilot not the plane.

2nd

Zanth is easily the "smartest" stick I've ever run into. He never puts himself at a disadvantage and always uses the tool he's strapped in the way it was designed. Now if your the "antizanth" and constantly putting yourself in bad situations that may explain the problems your having...

As for the Ki-84 vs La-7....the lala owns the ki in the vertical due to "total E" however the Ki hangs like a UFO so in a phonebooth fight the Ki will own the vertical. The Lala cant turn with a Ki other than at high speeds....

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Offline Fruda

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« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2004, 01:15:53 PM »
I've killed 3 La-7's in a Ki-84, and I've been killed once by an La-7 in a Ki-84, so no problems for me on that issue.