Author Topic: Marines war criminals?  (Read 6957 times)

Offline lazs2

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2004, 08:29:37 AM »
none of us were there... if it is a common tactic of the enemy war criminals to fake death or surrendering and then open fire on legitimate troops then it is the duty of the U.S. soldiers to open fire on any wounded or "dead" or "surrendering" war criminal that is making a suspicious move.

lazs

Offline parker00

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2004, 08:31:01 AM »
Unlike the prisoner abuse at the prison these soldiers were taking fire from these guys the day before and I'm sorry but if someone was taking shots at me or fellow soldiers then the hell with what happens to them. And since I wasn't there I won't make any judgements on if it was right or wrong, but they need to stop doing this crap in front of the camera. There is another clip out there that has the soldier talking to the reporter after he did something similar. Although in the clip where he talks to the reporter it seemed they may of still been taking fire from somewhere.


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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2004, 08:35:18 AM »
I have to ask this GS, no malice intended. If its a war crime to abandon POW who are supposed to be under your care then is what dutchbat did to those under its care a warcrime too?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 08:38:14 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline parker00

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2004, 08:41:04 AM »
Quote
No. Those soldiers did not take fire from that building the day before. Another Marine unit did, stormed and captured the place, and took five wounded enemy prisoner. The prisoners were left to be picked up later by a medical unit, but before that happened another Marine unit mistakenly stormed the building believing it was reoccupied, and shot four of the five prisoners.


Like I said, or my fellow soldiers. I didn't agree with the prison abuse because some of the people in the prison was rounded up in mass searches and may of had nothing to do with any attacks, but clearly these guys were trying to kill our soldiers and I don't care if was the day before or not. Hands are to be clearly in sight and after looking at the pictures and video clips I cannot say that I clearly see his hands or what they were doing.



68Parker

Offline Edbert1

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2004, 08:41:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
what is diference for you between terorist, bandit and freedom fighter?

I know you didn;t ask me this but I'll answer anyhow.

The differnece my friend is all in whom they (terrorist/bandit/freedom-fighter) target in their attacks. You attack the military you can get the last category from me. You attack undefended pipelines/power stations/bridges you are a bandit. You use car bombs, sever the heads from bound captives, and INDESCRIMINATELY target civilians then you are pure terrorist.

Offline lazs2

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2004, 08:42:16 AM »
no... heard and international war crimes lady talking and it would not be a war crime to shoot a wounded war criminal (terrorist in civilian dress) if you suspected that he would continue agression.

Mostly simply saying so would be enough... "I thought he was reaching for a weapon"   mostly... it would never even come to light.   It is especialy aprapro for the U.S. soldier to shoot if the tactic of faking death is common in the region of fighting.  

lazs

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2004, 08:48:10 AM »
Whats the practical difference between abandoing POW and letting them go free.

Offline lazs2

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2004, 08:57:53 AM »
sholts... they are not even soldiers... they are terrorists in civilian clothing shooting at real soldiers.

lazs

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2004, 09:01:01 AM »
GS can you prove that Geneva applies to these fighters?

Offline Ripsnort

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #99 on: November 16, 2004, 09:03:09 AM »
Gsholtz, where was your rage when Marines were shot at when honoring the international symbol for surrender, a white flag...last week?  I must have missed your post.

You see, both (this incident, and that one) were war crimes, but I must have missed your outrage last week.

Now, does this really surprise anyone that Marines might shoot first and ask question later considering the combatants we're facing?

Offline Otto

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #100 on: November 16, 2004, 09:03:54 AM »
BTW, isn't this what John Kerry did in Vietnam...?  Wasn't his 'Claim to Fame' jumping out of his boat and shooting a wounded VC?  What 'Goes around, comes around'...

Offline lazs2

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2004, 09:05:35 AM »
shlotz... not allways... wearing the uniform of a medical worker or policeman for instance...   it is a war crime to shoot at soldiers while wearing civilian clothes.    even an armband is enough to be considered a "uniform" tho.  

lazs

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #102 on: November 16, 2004, 09:10:59 AM »
It seems these Iraqi fighters do not qualify for POW status based on their actionb like repeatedly faking surrenders and using wounded as bait to then ill US soldiers with hidden explosives.

http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/Iraq/news-iraq4.html

The Right to be a Prisoner of War

It is important to understand that under the customary laws of war combatants have been historically classified in interstate hostilities as either “privileged” or “unprivileged” combatants. The privileged combatant is a person authorized by a party to such an armed conflict to engage in hostilities and thus has the “combatant’s privilege.” This privilege not only entitles him to directly participate in hostilities, but also guarantees him prisoner of war status upon capture and immunity from prosecution by his captor for his lawful acts of war. Members of regular armed forces, including militias or volunteer corps forming such forces, as provided for under Article 4A(1) and (3) of the Third Geneva Convention, are privileged combatants. Although members of regular armed forces are expected to comply with the laws of war, they do not forfeit their right to POW status upon capture even if they commit war crimes. They can, however, be tried and punished for such crimes by their captor.

An “unprivileged” combatant refers to a person who does not have the combatant’s privilege, but nevertheless directly participates in hostilities. Such combatants would include, inter alia, civilians who in violation of their protected status engage in fighting or other hostile acts. However, the law does sanction a levee en masse whereby civilians may spontaneously take up arms in order to resist an invading force. Spontaneity means that there is no time to organize into regular forces. Civilians participating in a levee en masse may qualify for privileged combatant and POW status, provided that they do not conceal their weapons and observe the laws of war. This is the single, limited exception to the proscription against civilians participating in hostilities.

The notion of unprivileged combatants has also been used to describe irregular or part-time combatants, such as guerrillas, partisans and members of resistance groups, who either fail to distinguish themselves from the civilian populations while on active duty or do not otherwise fulfill the requirements for privileged combatant status stated in Article 4A(2) of the Third Convention. This article effectively holds members of independent irregular groups to higher standards than those required of members of regular armed forces.

Specifically, in order to qualify as privileged combatants entitled to POW status, members of irregular groups must comply with the following stringent conditions set forth in sub-paragraph 2 of Article 4A: 1) they must belong to an organized group; 2) they must belong to a party to the conflict; 3) they must be under responsible command; 4) they must have a fixed, distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; 5) they must carry their arms openly and 6) they must conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Most authorities agree that the first three conditions are applicable to the irregular group collectively, while the final three conditions apply both to the group collectively and its individual members. Thus, if a majority of the members of the group fail to meet, for whatever reason, all or any of the last three conditions at any time, then all members of the group will not qualify for privileged combatant and POW status upon capture. Unlike privileged combatants, therefore, unprivileged combatants can be tried and punished for all their hostile acts, even if they otherwise did not violate the laws of war. It should be understood, however, that unprivileged combatants are not as such war criminals although their specific acts might breach the laws of war.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 09:14:13 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Charon

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2004, 09:18:29 AM »
War is war. I have no doubt he thought there was immediate risk (I mean, his unit was operating with camera coverage for God's sake! This was no Rodney King deal!). The insurgent wasn't obviously surrendering, wasn't in captivity, there existed a previous pattern of wounded still inflicting casualties... The Marine made a call. Maybe a bad call, maybe not, I would disagree that in house to house fighting with split second decisions that there are many real "bad calls" when your troops are protected by the action.

This is war. Kick in the door, throw in the grenade, shoot whatever moves afterwards before it shoots you. This is not some rear echelon administrative area where he's shooting a bound and gagged prisoner. It's not some peace keeping mission where you don't shoot anybody, sometimes even if you're under fire. This is full scale ground assault.

The only question that must be answered, sooner or later, is if the war itself is just. If not it's just a sad criminal waste of lives and resources. This had really better be a liberation (since the main reason for the war evaporated) and not some failed, unappreciated (by the Iraqi people) foreign policy experiment that backfires.

Charon

Offline Edbert1

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Marines war criminals?
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2004, 09:23:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Iraq really is Vietnam in a way, the media coverage.

Vietnam was the first "media war". This coverage resulted in a lot of the media attention being used against the soldiers on the home front.

In some ways, it's happening again...

Would prefer the media stayed in the rear, then maybe had a reporter come in and report on the situation well after organized hostilities have ceased.
-SW

It is turning into Vietnam in another even more disturbing way the way I see it. US servicemen and women are being asked to take the same ground over and over. These guys will risk it all to take that hill or clear this suburb. It is wrong of their leadership to ask them to take it again.

No, I do not yet equate Iraq to Vietnam, I am merely seeing similarities cropping up.