Author Topic: Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design  (Read 29970 times)

Offline Crumpp

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #135 on: December 02, 2004, 08:39:21 AM »
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Jumped by Spitfires over the Channel.


Sounds like they got bounced.  One moment of inattention and 4 guys go down.

Need more information to say for sure.

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #136 on: December 02, 2004, 09:32:17 AM »
A little note on the stepped rudder pedals. By moving his feet to the upper pedals, the pilot could take at least 1 more G.

Offline Crumpp

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #137 on: December 02, 2004, 09:37:25 AM »
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So the evil little beast could get even experienced pilots if their concentration slipped!


One of the pilots I am interviewing for my book flew both the 109 and the 190.  He calls the 109 a "Scheissbock".

Crumpp

Offline Guppy35

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #138 on: December 02, 2004, 12:00:19 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp


 

Noack was killed in a flying accident.  He pulled too high on landing, stalled, and crashed.  He was not shot down by Spitfires.

Crumpp


The stuff I saw, said he was wounded prior to the crash, much like that 54 Squadron Spit driver who stalled out on landing and was killed in the crash.

So in essence the combat contributed to his death.

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Offline Angus

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« Reply #139 on: December 02, 2004, 12:32:13 PM »
On the 24th the 109 Pilots got bounced I belive.
They were actually amazed how the Spitfires found them, for it was very cloudy. Radar or luck or both.
THis was an escort missions, Ju87 was the client.
The Spitfires did they unexpected, - they went straight for the 109's and not the Stukas. The results were impressive, a total dogfight where the escorts were completely scattered. The 87's were on their own, all the 109's lost each other, and 4 went down.
Some 87's were downed in the progress as well I belive, but have no more data there.
I have a picture of one after landing with a big hole in the fuselage and the crew wounded.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #140 on: December 02, 2004, 01:02:47 PM »
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So in essence the combat contributed to his death.


Really?  Not disputing you just saying my reports do not mention any prior damage.  You have a reference?

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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #141 on: December 02, 2004, 01:05:11 PM »
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On the 24th the 109 Pilots got bounced I belive.


Sounds like they were able to use the cloud cover to sneak right up on them and  bring down a few in the intitial bounce.  No wonder the escort was scattered.  They got surprised and the engagement began for the escort from a position of inferior position.

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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« Reply #142 on: December 02, 2004, 01:16:27 PM »
Actually Crumpp, those 4 did NOT go down at once. They went down in the ensuing dogfight.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #143 on: December 02, 2004, 01:50:39 PM »
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Actually Crumpp, those 4 did NOT go down at once. They went down in the ensuing dogfight.


Should be a time on the claim sheet.  You got a copy?

Crumpp

Offline HoHun

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #144 on: December 02, 2004, 03:28:30 PM »
Hi Tony,

>The impression I have from all of the contradictory evidence is that the Bf 109, relative to its comparators, was a very difficult plane to learn how to fly well.

Actually, the Bf 109 had many good characteristics and probably is among the more "easy-to-fly" WW2 fighters. It has good controllabiliity at medium and low speeds, is fairly spin-resistant, and can be dived to high speeds without much danger of overstressing. Ironically, this description matches the Spitfire pretty well, too, except for the high-speed part where the Spitfire offered better control (albeit at a price).

>So in summary, the Bf 109 proved a very effective weapon in the hands of experts who had spent a long time learning how to get the best from it, but it was not the kind of plane you wanted to hand to a new recruit.

No WW2 fighter is the kind of plane you'd ever want to hand to a new recruit. They were built for performance, and they sacrifice stability for manoeuvrability. It's just that in WW2, no air force had much choice about whether they wanted to hand their planes to new recruits ...

The WW2 fighters combined massive power with light weight, and the power was not just unbiased thrust as with jets, but it was generated by a large propeller which inevitably made flight characteristics far less from perfect. The more power, the better the fighter - and the more difficult to handle.

Additionally, stability was not a desirable attribute in a WW2 fighter. Both the Spitfire and the Me 109 were marginally stable at best in much of their flight envelope, and that made flying them highly demanding and meant they didn't easily forgive pilot mistakes. That's a universal for WW2 fighters - and actually, even the trainer aircraft of the era were picked to have some vices in order to teach the novice pilots never to let their guard down.

The unique vice of the Me 109 probably was its poor ground handling, which was improved only very late in the series. That's not as bad as its often painted - having fighters spin out of the traffic pattern would be much worse, but as long as the Me 109 was airborne, it was quite well-behaved.

(Warbirds today are approached with a lot of respect and caution even by expert pilots. Bf 109G-4 Werk-Nr. 109139, freshly rebuilt in Germany, just shredded its propeller tips on take-off when flown by a highly experienced LTU captain. This sums it all up pretty well - insufficient ground clearance certainly is one of the Me 109's design shortcomings :-)

John Deakin's "Pelican's Perch" column is a great read, especially when John shares some of his Warbirds experiences. It helped me a lot to appreciate just how special the WW2 fighters actually were:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182146-1.html

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #145 on: December 02, 2004, 05:04:41 PM »
quote:

No WW2 fighter is the kind of plane you'd ever want to hand to a new recruit. They were built for performance, and they sacrifice stability for manoeuvrability. It's just that in WW2, no air force had much choice about whether they wanted to hand their planes to new recruits ...


But some a/c could be taken off, flown and landed much more easier than others. The 109 was not one that was easy to TO and land. The Spitfire was.

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #146 on: December 02, 2004, 05:35:42 PM »
I have an excellent account of a RAF Spitfire Pilot's first combat mission.
He lost his squadron,- he was the tail end guy and weaved too much, - lost his squad in the clouds.
This was an offensive mission, 13th (or maybe the 10th) of September in 1941. RAF was milling around over N-France.
Anyway, the guy formed up with what he thought was his squad, then as he was almost in position, he found out he was forming up with a band of 109's.
So, he dived away, and ran as fast as he could.
2 of the 109's caught up with him over the channel.
They overshot, and there began a dogfight, 1 vs 2.
The RAF pilot managed to stay alive and unharmed for quite a while. What he worried about was the fuel status.
The 109's never got a shot, save the first pass.
Eventually, the 109's got jumped by the squadmates of the RAF pilot, one being sent down in flames while the other was last seen running with 4 Spitties on the 6.
The guy,somewhat shaken, landed safely at his base.
The point here that bites me, is that a first-time Newbie gets jumped by 2x109's and yet they never get a shot. He kept his evasives and they could not catch him. They could have gone on untill someone ran out of fuel.
So, 10th or 13th of September 1941, 109 losses over the channel anybody?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #147 on: December 02, 2004, 05:38:15 PM »
Oh, Milo.
I belive the 109 was not much harder to land than a Spitty.
The Slats after all helped quite a bit.
I have however seen some text on weering and tipovers.
On the top, the 109 would usually kill the pilot.
Does anyone have something of this?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #148 on: December 02, 2004, 05:50:03 PM »
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Originally posted by Angus
Oh, Milo.
I belive the 109 was not much harder to land than a Spitty.
The Slats after all helped quite a bit.
I have however seen some text on weering and tipovers.
On the top, the 109 would usually kill the pilot.
Does anyone have something of this?


From entering the circuit to end of roll out is all part of landing.

Offline Guppy35

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #149 on: December 03, 2004, 12:18:22 AM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Really?  Not disputing you just saying my reports do not mention any prior damage.  You have a reference?

Crumpp


The Battle of Britain Then and Now covers ever loss on both sides from July to October.  THat's where I got the info.  To quote it direct:

"II/JG26  Messerschmitt BF109E-1.  Severely wounded in combat over the French coast and crashed on approach to Marquise-Ost Aerodrome.  Hptmn. Noack(Gruppen Kommandeur) killed.  Aircraft a write off."

I don't know where that info came from, but the book is a heckuva resource :)

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