Author Topic: Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design  (Read 31969 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #555 on: January 23, 2005, 11:18:12 PM »
Speaking of BoB, it was on TV this afternoon. Had to do some channel hopping as Speedway racing was on another channel.

In one scene, when the airfields were being bombed, there was a scramble take off. Did not see anything that would suggest the Spit would dig its prop as Barbi would have us believe happened so many times and the Spits were not bouncing on turf even though at high speed. Oh yah, no WRENs on the tail either.:D

Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #556 on: January 24, 2005, 07:03:14 AM »
The Battle of Britain was picnic, according to Angie.

Well, this is what the survivors say :

"Q: When the German fighters engaged you, did they all come down mob-handed, or did they send down just a portion of their force, leaving a top cover reserve?

John: I cannot give you an honest answer to this question, as with their superior speed, height, and armament, I ran for cover, hence I am still in the land of the living. But my opinion is that if there were twelve or more, some would obviously have kept top cover.

Q: To what do you attribute your survival in the Battle?

John: I had to have been very lucky, but that was not all.

The four days that 253 spent in France was the longest and most harrowing I spent during the whole war. We lost our CO and both flight commanders, and one third of our pilots. I was dead lucky, completely inexperienced and in the hands of the Gods.  My first melee lined up on a Me110, to find I had not switched on my gunsight. Having done that I found that I had not switched on the gun button after which I had nothing left to fire at. I forgot all about my tail, and would have been easy meat for anyone, however I survived. But on my way back to Lille Marq, I spied a 109, fifty feet below me, going the same way. The poor bugger never stood a chance, I fired from within 100 yards, all my bullets going into him. I must have killed the pilot as he slowly went into a steep dive, no-one leaving the aircraft until it hit the ground. That was my first victory. It shook me considerably, as it so easily could have been me. I learned then to never stop looking around and above, which held me in good stead later on.

I also saw that the German fighters were a lot better than we had been led to believe, and that to attack them head-on with their two cannon was suicide.

I also learned that the best evasive action to take when attacked from above was to turn into them and dive at the same time.

I have very good eyes, and was made "tail-end Charlie" during the Battle, weaving around looking for the enemy, and reporting anything to the leader.

I attribute all the above to my survival."



-An interview with John Greenwood, who fought with 253 Sqn. during the Battle of Britain in Hurricanes, from August 30 1940 when he was posted to December 1940. The interview was conducted by e-mail in March-April and June 2004.



It`s always a bit shocking to see the contrast between Angie`s dreamworld, and how the people who had been there tell it. And also the Big picture... the RAF already lost over 50% of it`s senior officiers by August, Squadron Leaders and Wing Commanders...
Now Angie may claim the opposition was sucked and was inferior beyond grasp, but reality shows a different picture.

Ie. the losses sustained over Dunkirk in just a few days speak for themselves.



I am sure Angie will come up with an excuse.

"They emptied the Thames". :lol

And a bit on the Spitties undercarriage...

"September, 1943, saw the first extensive combat use of the Spitfire... Appearantly, it was decided to provide air support for the operation from a force of Royal Navy carriers equipped mainly with Seafire IICs and LIICs. The Seafires brough down a few German and Italian aircraft,  partly because the tactics were predominantly defensive and many of the raiders were bomb-carrying JaBo Bf 109s and FW 190s. But in 713 sorties, no fewer than 42 of the 120 Seafires involved had been lost or written off, including 32 wrecked in landing accidents, while 39 more of the fighters had been damaged in deck accidents. Altough the operation served it`s purpose of providing air cover until the land forces could provide secure airstrips, the Seafire force had virtually ceased to exists by Salerno D-Day plus 3. The bad experiance of Salerno not unnaturally coloured the Navy`s subsequent view on the Seafire; altough the development of a Seafire version with a stronger undercarriage was initiated shortly after the Salerno operations, it was to be another 3 years after this aircraft, the Seafire 17, entered service. Meanwhile, deliveries of purpose built American carrier fighters to the Fleet Air Arm were picking up speed, and the Seafire suffered by comparison."

See Bill Sweetman`s 'Spitfire', in 'The Great Book of WW2 Airplanes', page 314.


Hmm, 4.4% loss rate/sortie ALONE to landing accidents...
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #557 on: January 24, 2005, 07:45:17 AM »
Last time I knew, the fall of France was one conflict, Dunkirk was the end of it, and the BoB was another one.

At the fall of France, the RAF did terribly, and sustained terrible losses.
Over Dunkirk the Match was more even, there the LW sustained quite some losses.
In the BoB, for the first time, the Germans had to cease their activity due to heavy losses, and turn over to nighttime bombings, for which there was yet no remedy.

Please don't mix this up!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #558 on: January 24, 2005, 07:55:50 AM »
Oh, Izzy, saw your nice undercarriage twist.

You can read this up in Jeff Quills book, - maybe you have and chose to hush it in the belief that I would not spot it.
But I did.

Those Spits operated from small escort carriers, which would have given any monoplane a serious problem. The attempt to use these was in my opinion stupid, - no matter if it were Spitties or even F4F's. The deck was very short, and the cruise speed was slow, and now you know.
Yet, from those small escort carriers, Spitfires and Hurricanes were launched from 600 Miles distance to Malta......
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #559 on: January 24, 2005, 08:05:54 AM »
Oh, and what changes.
While the RAF suffered almost crippling losses on the French mainland, they gradually pulled themselves together with better and better success, - and Spitfires gradually increasing their numbers.
November was the last month of LW daylight operations, the last engagement being on the 27th.
Spitfires jumped I/JG51 shooting down 6, with AFAIK no losses.
The month turned out RAF:146 kills (some handful ack), LW 31 (Hurries and Spits)
So, the LW switched over to nighttime ops.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #560 on: January 24, 2005, 08:17:46 AM »
Oh, again.
They did Empty the Thames.
There was just not so much water in it.

Just can't get it why, after all, the LW never used teror bombing as a method. Never :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #561 on: January 24, 2005, 10:58:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Oh, and what changes.
While the RAF suffered almost crippling losses on the French mainland, they gradually pulled themselves together with better and better success, - and Spitfires gradually increasing their numbers.


Uhum, see what happened over Dunkirk. Even Stukas operated with far less loss rate than Spitfires. As for the number of Spitfires, despite the huge numbers produced, the RAF FC was made up 1/3 Spitfires at the beginning and at the end of the battle just the same.

Quote

November was the last month of LW daylight operations, the last engagement being on the 27th.
Spitfires jumped I/JG51 shooting down 6, with AFAIK no losses.[/B]


Yep, you mean the usual RAF way, claim a large number of aircraft against 'no losses'. Wonder why they got to fight over London then...? They reported 170-180 shot down enemy planes per day regularly during BoB, checked against actual German losses - 30-40 maximum...


Quote

The month turned out RAF:146 kills (some handful ack), LW 31 (Hurries and Spits)
So, the LW switched over to nighttime ops.
[/B]


Nice revisionism Angie. A little manipulation with the number, using exaggrevated RAF claims, including AAA claims during the night against bombers, and right off you can claim your RAF heroes as supernatural beings... sure. :D

One thing I don`t understand though... why is the final tally being a lot more Spits/Hurris lost than 109s then? I mean, in Angie World, the only type of engagement seen is a enourmous number of 109s being shot down, for no lossess...
And where did all those experienced RAF flyers went, why did Dowding had to pull out students from flight schools before they even finished the training course and so on...
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #562 on: January 24, 2005, 11:26:41 AM »
Oh, dear Izzy:
"
November was the last month of LW daylight operations, the last engagement being on the 27th.
Spitfires jumped I/JG51 shooting down 6, with AFAIK no losses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, you mean the usual RAF way, claim a large number of aircraft against 'no losses'. Wonder why they got to fight over London then...? They reported 170-180 shot down enemy planes per day regularly during BoB, checked against actual German losses - 30-40 maximum... "

These were actually LW losses, - RAF claimed 10.
Same with the November combined number, claims were much higher.
Yes, those overclaiming last 50 Spitfires :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #563 on: January 24, 2005, 11:34:51 AM »
Then on to this one:
"One thing I don`t understand though... why is the final tally being a lot more Spits/Hurris lost than 109s then? I mean, in Angie World, the only type of engagement seen is a enourmous number of 109s being shot down, for no lossess... "

The Tally of BoB is more British fighters lost than 109's.
However, more German Aircraft, and noticably crew than the ones of the RAF.

Then that one:
"And where did all those experienced RAF flyers went, why did Dowding had to pull out students from flight schools before they even finished the training course and so on..."

Those rather inexperienced pilots still reached the beforementioned Tally.
Then the aftermath, Britain was in full swing training new pilots, ending the war with ample pilots.
My great uncle was already flying with the RAF in the summer 1940, yet he and his mates did not enter operational missions until late summer 1941. So stuff it! It was a temporary problem, - it got solved.
I remember your figure of 6000 LW fighter pilots lost. Now tell me, how could a nation of 80 million people not patch that up in 6 years? This is about the car accident death rate in 1 year....

In angieworld, revisionised and censored, the LW lost the BoB and had to revert to night offensive. DOT.
Wonder if anyone agrees with that.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #564 on: January 24, 2005, 11:48:43 AM »
Yup Angus, Barbi always forgets to include the bomber losses but that is so typical of him.:)

Again he makes a mountain out of a molehill by saying one day's claim was the regular for the whole battle. Should we re-name Barbi to Mr. Exageration?:D

The RAF had to be supernatural beings to put the boots to the O so mighty LW and send them packing with their tails between their legs. Well, according to Barbi the LW were the supermen.:rolleyes:

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #565 on: January 24, 2005, 12:07:53 PM »
Angus, the LW lost 435 a/c (German Quartermaster returns) but only announced the loss of 243 a/c to the German public for the last 3 weeks of Sept. 1940. (Deighton)

He also takes the claims used for the English public as official RAF claims. Barbi does have his problems.;)

Offline HoHun

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #566 on: January 24, 2005, 02:42:55 PM »
Hi Kurfürst,

>Hmm, 4.4% loss rate/sortie ALONE to landing accidents...

Well, the Seafire was not really suited for carrier operations, but the reason was not the landing gear.

According to Seafire and Sea Fury pilot Mike Crosley, the problem with the Seafire was that the Spitfire wing didn't have a defined stall. In most situations, that's a good characteristic, and it doesn't really matter in landings where enough runway is available.

However, in a carrier landing, you can't use the normal technique of floating down the runway to bleed speed, then settle gently on the ground. You need to stop flying abruptly, as any tendency to float can make you bounce, miss the wires, and hit the barrier (or worse, hop over it).

In the Seafire, the situation was made worse by the carrier equipment which made the aircraft so tail-heavy that on the landing approach, it flew with the horizontal tail providing lift. If the pilot cut the throttle in order stop flying and touch down at a spot of his choosing, the tail would lose the slipstream-induced lift and drop - giving just the same effect as pulling back on the stick while flying near stall speed. That could cause a stall and "prang", or if the speed was higher, a float resulting in missed wires and a barrier strike or worse.

The narrow landing gear actually was not that bad as it meant that the Spitfire would tend to run straight after touchdown, just like with the Me 109. (Regardless of whether the pilot actually wanted to go straight or not, that is :-)

Crosley contrasts this to the American practice of approaching in shallow flight with high power and high drag due to large split flaps. The US Navy fighters would positively stop to fly when power was chopped and were capable of safe and accurate deck landings as a result.

Interestingly, the Me 109T-1 was fitted with dedicated spoiler flaps in order to make US Navy-style carrier approaches practicable. Though often ridiculed in older books on the topic, the Me 109T-1 was actually quite well-suited for carrier operations.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #567 on: January 25, 2005, 04:40:11 PM »
Very nice analisys HoHun.
(Although you officially do not correspond with me)

It very much speaks out the explanation for what I was looking for when I saw Spits land some in my first times.
They didn't want to get down, just floated and floated.

Now add to that No wind, a slow escort carrier and a short deck.......yeachhh disaster.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #568 on: January 27, 2005, 05:02:20 AM »
Oh, guess what.
Was looking at BoB statistics and some more this morning.
I stumbled across two items which I am sure Izzy's gonna love.
1. LW losses in may and June 1940 were 1100 aircraft.
2. It has been regarded as a myth that LW bomber squadrons were turned around during the battle (Jettison and run home) Now I have that documented.
Will type in the details later.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #569 on: January 27, 2005, 11:06:35 AM »
Ok, here goes.
From the Germans, through Ultra (They were making the balance).
Losses May and June 1940:
Total 1100+ aircraft destroyed, 145 damaged.
There off 235 109E's, 106 110's, 113 Ju87's, 492 medium bombers, others 154+
Additionally, accidents another 216 aircraft.


Then, on to breaking bomber squadrons.
100 DO 17's from KG3 en route to London.
Headwind, so escorts did not have enough fuel (!)
That also gave fighter command more plotting time.
6 Dorniers shot down, the rest jettisoned their bombs and ran for home.
Really interesting, for this shows rather nicely what a little more time on the plotting boards can do, as well as lack of escorts!
109's returning long before reaching London.
FYI, the total results of that day, based on loss records mind you, were LW bombers 35 with several damaged,LW total 55, while RAF stood at 28.
Date was 14 Sep 1940
Source: Christopher Shore's DUEL FOR THE SKY, ten cruicial air battles of WW2, Page 34 and 52
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)