Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design

[Kurfürst]

Now this one should be more interesting :


"Apart from performance, it was also very important the plane to possess a sort of 'goodwill'.
The Bf 109 - except for take-offs - was an easy-to-fly airplane, and in addition it brought back the pilot even with serious damage. My plane, 'Blue 1' received hits multiple times, in one case when attacking a Boston formation the skin on the left wing was ripped off on half square meter, the main spar was damaged and the undercarriage tire was blown to pieces, yet it dropped without a problem and the plane landed just like it was a training session. Not to mention it`s valuable quality that it never caught fire during landing on the belly after a fatal hit, in contrast to many other type, with which such emergency procedure put us at a serious risk because of the danger of fire and explosion. To summerize : we loved the Bf 109.
We did not like war. Alas, as we were soldiers, we performed our duty. The end of this sad story is marked by white marble in the world`s cemeteries."

- Pinter Gyula,
2nd Lt., RHAF. 101st Fighter Regiment, 1991.


Note : 'training session', he says 'school circle', ie. to take off, then land, not sure of the english equivalent.

[Angus]

From IZZY:
"Angus is very concerned about lenght measurements around now.

Your woman said something ? "

ROFL, - nice, there is Friday night in yer land as well


As for the pilots quote, nice as well, keep e'm coming.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Now this one should be more interesting :


"Apart from performance, it was also very important the plane to possess a sort of 'goodwill'.
The Bf 109 - except for take-offs - was an easy-to-fly airplane, and in addition it brought back the pilot even with serious damage. My plane, 'Blue 1' received hits multiple times, in one case when attacking a Boston formation the skin on the left wing was ripped off on half square meter, the main spar was damaged and the undercarriage tire was blown to pieces, yet it dropped without a problem and the plane landed just like it was a training session. Not to mention it`s valuable quality that it never caught fire during landing on the belly after a fatal hit, in contrast to many other type, with which such emergency procedure put us at a serious risk because of the danger of fire and explosion. To summerize : we loved the Bf 109.
We did not like war. Alas, as we were soldiers, we performed our duty. The end of this sad story is marked by white marble in the world`s cemeteries."

- Pinter Gyula,
2nd Lt., RHAF. 101st Fighter Regiment, 1991.


Note : 'training session', he says 'school circle', ie. to take off, then land, not sure of the english equivalent.

Does he indicate what kind of experience he had as a pilot when he first got in a 109?  Hours, types of aircraft he'd flown etc?

Reason I ask, is that any dicussion regarding ease of flight comparisons have always been in relation to a new pilot transitioning to a Spit or a 109.

Dan/Slack

[Angus]

That's why I take Rall's view, for instance, quite seriously.

If all quotes were from pilots with that much experience....

[LRRP22]

Hello Crumpp,

I had to register just to respond to your post:D

you said:
--------------
quote:Mustang speed and climb at low altitude test results from Boscombe Down



The FW-190A9 is just barely faster with MW-50 at sea level than the Mustang III using 80"hg. Backs up Oscar's experience over the Ardennes forest in Dec. 44.

Thanks Neil for the data.

Crumpp
---------------

In fact, the Mustang III (P-51B/C) at +25 lbs/80" Hg boost was substantially faster at sea level than any 190, including the Dora.

Mustang III FB 377 reached 649 kph/403 mph at SL without wingracks but otherwise combat loaded, while losing an estimated 13 kph/8 mph with wing racks fitted.

FB377 (SZ-R) was pulled from squadron service with 316 (Polish) Squadron in July/Aug '44.  'As received' from the squadron, FB377 did 615 kph, but that was with at least six coats of chipped paint work "in very poor condition".  Here are links to the RAE chart and to the description of FB377 as received:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/brentce/FB377fig4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/brentce/FB377pg3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/brentce/FB377pg4.jpg


The results for Mustang IV/P-51D TK589 are the slowest speeds I have yet seen for SL performance with wing racks at +18 lbs and +25 lbs boost.  The fact that TK589 was delivered to the UK in March '44, and the test took place in August might indicate that TK589 was a little bit wrung out at the time of testing (minus 5-10 mph?).  Isegrim will disagree since he is very fond of quoting these numbers to represent P-51 speeds at low altitude...

[GScholz]

Who the hell are you?! You can't just pop in like that! ... Not without presenting yourself!


Welcome to the forum!

[MiloMorai]

LRPP is one of Barbi's bestest of buddies.

[Kurfürst]

Bf 109 vs. Spitfire vs. Fw 190 vs. P-51

Now that will be fun. Foresee a 2000+ post-thread.

Now the British Mustang test, Mustang IV/P-51D TK589. Conditions noted, to me it seems pretty much standard, with some care given to the aircraft.



The Mustang III FB 377 LRRP2 refers to were done in a special test series finding a suitable plane type for V-1 hunting, much of the equipment being stripped to make the plane lighter and cleaner...

[Kurfürst]

Some remarks on the SPITFIRE from Soviet pilot :

from Alfred Price's "The Spitfire Story"

"Until now little information has appeared in the west on how the Soviet Air Force used the Spitfire VBs it received at the beginning of 1943. The account which follows is based on the memoirs of the fighter pilot Senior Lieutenant (later Colonel) Anatoli Ivanov; some of his phrases might ring a little strangely in western ears, but are included to give the flavour of what he wrote. Ivanov's unit, the 36th Fighter Aviation Regiment, had been in action on the Caucasian front with Polikarpov I-16 fighters until near the end of 1942 when it was pulled back to an airfield near Baku on the Caspian Sea to reform and re-equip. In February 1943 the Regiment received its first Spitfires:

We studied the new aircraft carefully, but because there were no manuals we could not find out what it would be like in the air. Neither our instructors nor the technicians had any figures on its performance. We knew that at the time the English had a better fighter, the Spitfire IX, and the word was that it was good. The aircraft our allies had presented to us, however, were of a much older version. Ours had fought against the Germans over the Channel during 1941 and 1942, and these Spitfires had taken some knocks before they were repaired and transferred to us.

Its speed was not much greater than that of the I-16. Its ceiling was not greater than 9,000 metres [29,500 feet] and it was armed with 2 cannon and 4 machine guns .... The Spitfire was simple to fly and tolerant of mistakes, but it wasn't anything special. The I-16 had been much more demanding. Still the Spitfire did have a radio, albeit a poor one.* The Soviet fighters designed by Lavochkin and Yakovlev had a significantly better performance. The sole advantage of the Spitfire was the fact that it was very light and, with its powerful engine, it climbed well; this would give us the advantage of height. Its worst feature was that the guns were mounted in the wings; the distance between the cannon was nearly 4 metres, so when attacking the enemy from close range the concentration of fire power was low.

Ivanov described the Spitfire as 'a kaftan for someone else's shoulders', ie 'someone else's jacket', but acknowledged that the Soviet Air Force was short of fighters and had to make use of anything it could get.

Near Baku the 36th Fighter Aviation Regiment, and a sister unit nearby, received their complement of Spitfires and the task of conversion training proceeded. During February the 36th was honoured with the award of Guards status and redesignated the 57th Guards Fighter Regiment. By the third week in April the unit was ready again for operations, and began moving to the Kuban area on the southern front to join the heavy fighting around the German bridgehead based on the port of Novorossiysk on the Black Sea. Ivanov's Regiment arrived at its base, a forward airfield situated near the village of Popovicheskoy, to find that the airwar had changed a great deal since it had left the front. Both sides now regularly put up forces of over a hundred aircraft, and when these clashed large scale battles would ensue with losses on both sides. During these actions the main German fighter opposition came from the Messerschmitt 109s of Jagdgeschwader 52, though from time to time FW 190s were also seen in the area.

Initially the Spitfires were not used properly on the Kuban front, and suffered accordingly. As Ivanov explained:

Usually we were given a specific area, bounded by three or four points on the ground, over which we were to provide cover for our ground forces. Specific altitudes and times for these patrols were laid down. But because the points defining the patrol areas were close together, we had to decrease speed to remain in the area and so found ourselves at a disadvantage compared with the enemy.

*Before delivery to the Soviet Air Force the Spitfire VBs had had their VHF sets removed and TR 9 high frequency sets installed.

If we tried to comb the area at high speed, we risked running short of fuel and could not cover it for the required period. The enemy fighters quickly took the measure of these poorly thought-out tactics and made attacks which cost us dearly. During our first encounter with escorted Fascist bombers, on 28 April, the Spitfires paid not a small price. Patrolling a designated area at low speed and being tied to points on the ground, the force of Spitfires was unable to manoeuvre freely and co-ordinate the action of its pairs and fours. The enemy fighters, using their altitude advantage, attacked us without hindrance.

Another problem the Soviet Spitfire pilots soon discovered was that their aircraft looked quite unlike Russian-built fighters and were often taken for those of the enemy by ground gunners and the pilots of other units. Several times Spitfires came under attack from 'friendly' forces and some were shot down or damaged, including Ivanov's:

I was attacking a Fascist Junkers 87 bomber and, having got myself into an advantageous position, would probably, have shot him down. But then our Yaks appeared. 'Yaks!' I shouted over the radio, 'Yaks, don't hinder my attack. Give me cover-I'm on your side!' But one of the pilots obviously did not understand, he swung round on to my tail and opened up with everything. My wings were holed and glycol vapour
started to trail from the engine cowling. I wanted to bale out but by then I was too low. I reduced speed and somehow managed to level out the Spitfire, I barely made it home.

Following this and other incidents, the Spitfires made demonstration flights over gun sites in the area and paid visits to neighbouring fighter units to familiarise everyone with the lines of the British fighter. Initiallythe Spitfires carried the Regiment's emblem, a large yellow arrow painted across the fuselage. But it was felt that it confused rather than aided identification and the design was hastily removed."

[Angus]

So,,,,,old second hand Spitties were not on pair with the newest German and even Russian stuff, and non original radio sets were not too good.
And Rall and his fellows actually met Spifires then, but had no reason to fear them because the Russians didn't know how to use them anyway, save alone spraying with hizookas so far apart at close range.

uuuuuuh?

[LRRP22]

Kurfurst's quote:
---------------------
The Mustang III FB 377 LRRP2 refers to were done in a special test series finding a suitable plane type for V-1 hunting, much of the equipment being stripped to make the plane lighter and cleaner...
---------------------


Isegrim,

I posted the relevant descriptions of condition and restoration right along with the speed graphs.  Anyone with even a basic comprehension of English can see that it was a squadron service example in full combat configuration.  Heck, I even gave you the squadron and squadron code for FB377.*   The 403 mph speed includes ALL combat equipment, excluding wingracks.  With wingracks, in full combat configuration, it was capable of 395 mph@SL.  The 405 mph/652 kph @SL speed resulted from the only other removal of combat equipment. Namely a small horseshoe-shaped bracket of at the base of the aerial (the aerial was left in place) and the replacement of the exhaust stacks with slightly larger Spitfire stacks.  It's all there in the descriptions I posted.

As has been pointed out to you countless times, the "at least" six coats of "very poor" paintwork were restored to something less than factory fresh condition.  You can bet that a factory fresh, fully combat equipped example running at +25 lbs boost would have been even faster.

As for TK589, I don't dispute the speeds- I just don't believe that it represents the speed of a factory fresh airframe.  The timeline I described indicates that it certainly wasn't factory fresh, and no, it did not recieve 'special attention'- the description of the wing surfaces was, as you know, a factory finish.  All Mustangs had filled and sanded wing joints- every single one.  Like I said,  the +18 lbs speeds only seem to be 5-10 mph below other tests which could easily be attributed to a little engine wear and tear.


*A little more on FB377...  Before it was sent to RAE for testing, it had already downed eigth V-1's- two by tipping.  As a matter of fact FB377/SZ-R had had it port wingtip replaced due to damage incurred during the tipping.



__________________

[Angus]

Ok, more stuff here.
Great aircraft of WW2, Alfred Price and Mike Spick, p22
Hans Scmoller-Haldy of a captured Spitfire.
(It's already been shown somewhere on the forum)
"I was able to fly a captured Spitfire at Jever. My first impression was that it had a beautiful engine. It purred. The engine of the Messerscmitt 109 was very loud. Also, the Spitfire was easier to fly, and to land, than the Me 109. The 109 was unforgiving of any inattention."

Jeff Quill of the 109:
p 200
" I have mentioned how badly I felt about the ailerons of the Spitfire at the time of the battle of Britain. In October 1940 I flew captured Me109; to my surprize and relief I found the aileron control of the German fighter every bit as bad - if not worse - at high speeds as that of the Spitfire I and II with fabric covered ailerons. They were good at low and medium speed, but at 400 mh and above they were almost immovable. I thought the Me 109E performed well, particularly on the climb at altitude, and it had good stalling characteristics under g, except that the leading-edge slats kept snapping in and out. But it had no rudder trimmer - which gave it a heavy footload at high speed - while the cockpit, the canopy and the rearward vision were much worse than in the Spitfire. Had I flown the Me 109 earlier I would have treated the aeroplane with less respect in combat."

But Quill did fight the 109's in the BoB, so here's a dogfight:
P186
"One engagement with several Me 109's at about 25000 ft over the channel sticks in my memory. It happened very suddenly; in fact we were mildly "bounced" and soon I found myself between two 109's in a steep left-hand turn. I was able to turn inside the second one and fired at him from close range. He went on pulling round as sharply as he could. I followed him without any difficulty and went on firing bursts at him. There were puffs of black smoke and then a trail of white vapour streamed from his aircraft."

Now, Neville Duke tested the 109 cockpit.
Test Pilot, p 73., while in Cairo.
"We also received a Messerchmitt 109F from Middle East headquarters, but I never flew it, for I found great difficulty in getting myself into the small cockpit."

oops


Something that young Duke did in the narrow Spitfire cockpit, p48:
"We were at 25000 feet and there were lots of 109's about; too many, in fact, and one of them got on my tail and I saw his tracer going just over my hood, I got out of his way by turning hard and climbing, only to be jumped by eight of his friends. I used all the dodges I could and managed to get away from them when I was well out to sea."

Well. Duke sure knew how to Duke it out with the 109's, - he earned most of his perks in the desert though.
One more account, p.77, HO merge with 109's
"I saw tracer passing over my cockpit, engaged two 109's and began a climbing and turning match with them; we chased up to 20,000 feet and there was a warm comfort infinding that my Spitfire could climb and turn inside the Messerscmitts with no trouble"

BTW, Duke was together with Ian Gleed when Gleed fell in an air battle near Cape Bon. (Debated whether there were 190's there)
I remember Gleed being credited with 3 kills+ in a single pass during the BoB, but can't find it at the moment.
Anyway, nuff for now, gotta milk 'em cows

[Angus]

Oh, LRRP22, I flew over your post.
Very very nice. Would you happen to have some more performance figs for that P51, climb and speeds at alts?

[LRRP22]

Angus,

The report I scanned that data from (AVIA 6/10618) doesn't include any climb data.  The test's purpose was to determine what kind of speeds squadron service Mustang III's, Spit XIV's, and Tempest V's were capable of on 150 octane fuel and increased boost at low altitudes while chasing V-1's.

The additional ~20% hp produced at +25 lbs boost should get a Mustang III with an empty fusealge tank (9290 lbs) up to around 4500 fpm at approx. 4000 ft, if you assume a 3500 fpm climb rate with a full fuselage tank (9800 lbs).  The percentage of climb rate increase would be highly dependent on altitude since the Merlin 66/V-1650-7 could not maintain the aprrox 20% HP increase at all altitudes and lost all gains at the 20,000 foot +18 lbs FTH.

Here's a link to another chart that shows +25 lbs boost speeds:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14at21.jpg

When compared with other performance charts such as AVIA 6/10618 and 18/732, this one appears to show speeds, with wingracks, for both the V-1650-3 engined Mustang III and the -7 equipped P-51B.  This chart may show calculated data (apparently accurate), but the fact that it refers to a Mustang III and a P-51B seperately indicates that it could well be test data.

[Crumpp]

Various P51B curves from 1944:






Mustang III Curve:



Notice the speed gains occur after the wing is cleaned up AND the racks removed.  

The question becomes in 1944 just how many P51B's were flying in a clean configuration without the wing drop tanks into German Controlled airspace.

Many pilots regarded the Malcolm-hooded P-51B/C as the best Mustang of the entire series.  It was lighter, faster, and had crisper handling than the later bubble-hooded P-51D and actually had a better all-round view.  Its primary weakness, however, was in its armament--only four rather than six guns, which often proved prone to jamming. Some of the modifications applied to the P-51D to improve the ammunition feed were later retrofitted into P-51B/Cs, which made them less prone to jamming. With modified guns and a Malcolm hood, the P-51B/C was arguably a better fighter than the P-51D, with better visibility, lower weight, and without the structural problems which afflicted the D. Its departure characteristics were also more benign.

 

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_9.html

It was a P51D Oscar Boesch outran on the deck in his FW-190A8/R7.  Specifically it was 5 x P 51D's who gave a long chase but gave up when Oscar pulled away.

BTW, If you get the chance I highly recommend seeing Oscar's performance.  He fly's at many major airshow's.

http://www.avialantic.com/performers/oscar.html

Crumpp