Author Topic: Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"  (Read 1182 times)

Offline Simaril

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2004, 06:28:04 AM »
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Originally posted by mars01
I'm not sure about that.  If they do TOD right then it should be all that the strat guys want.  Hitting targets, flying escorts, taking fields and using some sort of strategy.  Why would straters fly in the MA?  


Why shouldnt they? Why shouldnt the game offer even a simple strategic level of play? Why should players with that interest be forced to go to another arena to get it?

Quote
The problem with the MA apeasing everyone and getting it right, is that there is a conflict of interests between those that want to strategery and those that just want to fight.



Its not really appeasement, its finding a balance that works for everybody. If the game were primarily chess-like strategy, to be honest it would be a loser. What I'm suggesting is a mildly increased strategic flavoring -- which I think would actually improve the fight balance by spreading out the horde, as described above.
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Offline Simaril

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2004, 06:29:15 AM »
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Originally posted by Sabre1
Throw in several manned acks at the strat targets.


Interesting, but i suspect most strat flyers come in above 7k AGL. Manned acks dont do much there.
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Offline Simaril

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2004, 06:30:28 AM »
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Originally posted by bozon
Having hangars stay down longer, does not change anything from the furballers point of view - unless upping from vulched fields is your cup of tea that is. Once fighters are disabled, you will roll from the next field anyway. So you'll have to do it for 15min longer which is about 1 sortie time.

The reward for the furballers is the option of hunting the bombers otw to the factories.

Bozon



My thoughts exactly, Bozon.
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Offline lazs2

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2004, 08:12:05 AM »
well... simaril... if you think that the game is all furball and gv and landgrab and the furball guys think it is all strat game and gv's and landgrab (which we think of as the "strat" of the game)....


then something is really wrong.   no one is happy except the landgrabbing gv guys.    

Furball guys don't care about landgrabbing or gv's and now yu tell me that the strat guys don't either..

perhaps we have common ground.  I have no problem with any strat that doesn't make the game a 10 hours on or nothing kind of situation so long as there is allways something for a furballer to do.    We have short attention spans so... when we only have an hour or two to play we don't care who is winning the war or whatever... we don't want to fly around doing nothing for those precious hours....

might as well fix the dishwasher.


oh... and "hunting bombers" or even having bombers in the game is no reward for furballers... we have no use for bombers or fighting them... they are a non element as far as furballers are concerned... you only shoot at bombers when you are bored witless... a condition that your ideas seem to highten.

lazs
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 08:14:22 AM by lazs2 »

Offline mars01

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2004, 12:14:59 PM »
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Why shouldnt they? Why shouldnt the game offer even a simple strategic level of play? Why should players with that interest be forced to go to another arena to get it?
 Right now is a very simple strategic level of play and it is not enough.  I have no problem with the strat game playing in the same arena as the rest, but there has to be a safe haven for people who could care less about land grab or strat.  

Land grab and strat has one main goal lessen or stop your opponents from being able to fight.  For people that just want to fight this is a problem.

Thus Lazs idea, which should be simple enough to implement.  All you need are three bases or three carriers off in the corner of the map.

I agree breaking things up into seperate arenas stops people from shifting gears quickly and is the main reason why seperate arenas are a bad idea.  Unfortunately it's not our choice.

Offline Sabre

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2004, 01:36:56 PM »
We’ve had this discussion innumerable times in the past.  The current strat situation is a direct result of HTC listening to the players and trying to find a solution that would satisfy both the bomber cult (to steal a phrase from history) and the fighter cult.  Unfortunately, it proved inadequate to the former, and irritating to the latter.  TOD is supposed to be HTC’s next attempt at providing something for the immersion crowd; i.e. those who like to fly in a more historical context, whether in fighters or bombers.  I look forward to TOD, but also wish the MA had a slightly more historical feel as well.

However, in the mean time I will wax philosophic on how I’d change the MA in the absence of TOD.  First, in addition to being able to pork the supplies at a field/base by direct attack, I’d also make it possible reduce them over time with attacks against the strategic source of that supply (factories/facilities).  It’s a question of cause and effect.  Attack the source, and you create a temporary shortage of that supply for all fields in that zone.  Damage or destroy the fuel depot for instance, and in a short period of time all bases in that zone would have reduced fuel, just as if someone bombed it.  Say, 25% damage to the fuel depot would reduce fuel at bases in that zone by 25% after 10 minutes.  Damage the depot 50%, and fuel would drop to 50% at bases.  Say you were only concerned about one base?  Hitting a base’ supply convoy would have a similar effect, but only at that base.  A minimum of fuel and gun ammo would still always be available (as it is now).

I would also tie rebuild times at base towns (which control whether a base is “capture-able”) to safe arrival of trains.  Each base town would have a train track leading to it.  Kill the train, and it slows the town’s rebuild.  You might also tie the number of troops necessary to capture the maproom in the town to safe and timely train arrivals, making it easier to capture a base if you cut its supply line.  Any bridge used by a train or truck convoy would be destroyable, though it would require several thousand pounds of bomb damage to do so.  Cutting the supply route in this way would stop the train or truck convoy from continuing.

The remainder of the strat system would remain in place, i.e. the capital city of a zone would still control rebuild time of factories and such; however, it would also control rebuild time of bridges.

This would not change the situation for furballers, but would give strat-guys the means to affect the war in a unique and (perhaps slightly) more realistic way.
Sabre
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Offline lazs2

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2004, 02:09:53 PM »
Like I said... noting much wrong with any of you guys strat ideas so long as the players who like to furball or even have a lot of action have someplace to go...

The problem is that if you don't throw us that bone then your "stat" ideas simply make things even worse for us.   We don't stay on line for 10 hours at a time and are not in the least concerned with some huge team effort to win the enormously rewarding...... reset.

throw us a bone first and then you can decide amoung yourselves what you want for strat...  If we have no place to go tho we will fight every effort you instigate to make the game even less fun for us.

point is... to be blunt... all your ideas offer nothing for us and in most cases just make things worse for us.

lazs

Offline mars01

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2004, 03:00:44 PM »
Exactly Lazs.

Quote
This would not change the situation for furballers, but would give strat-guys the means to affect the war in a unique and (perhaps slightly) more realistic way.
Yes it would and we would be back to the same place when fuel was an issue.

When fuel was porkable to 25%, I could log on and not find a fight within two sectors of the front line.  At the height of the fuel porking problem that is all Strat guys would do.  This would then allow them to attack a base almost virtually undefended.

Like Laz points out...

If the strat game is going to limit the ability to up and fight at any given time, then it will not work for a sizeable group of people that play this game.  If on the other hand, you strat guys break the back of one country, but we can still go to a corner of the map and fight like crazy, then you could pretty much implement anything you want.

Offline Sabre

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2004, 03:38:04 PM »
Mars, your concern is a valid one.  However, I'd suggest that porking the fuel depot (as an example) would require more than it does now, in terms of effort.  With greater reward must come greater effort.  So, one guy in a bomber could not reduce the fuel depot to 25%; more like a half dozen.  As it is now, base resupply by goon/m3 ought to have the effect of rebuilding the fuel supply (for example), but on a temporary basis in the case of fuel porked via strat bombing.  Indeed, it might be desirable to have more load-out options for C-47's, breaking it down into type of field supply to deliver.  You could further add the option of C-47 formations, to carry more supplies.  And again, you would still be unable to reduce fuel to below 25% at a base, or deny gun ammo.

Lasz, I don't have a problem with having a section of the map, somewhat isolated, that would have a handful of un-porkable fields within a short distance of one another.  I'm not sure how used this area would be, as the fights seem to alway evolve out of a base-capture attempt in the MA.  However, I don't see that it would cause any problems.  Some players seem to get bored with upping time and again with no objective other than to shoot down another player.
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Offline BlackCross

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2004, 09:04:54 PM »
So let me get this straight.

Strat guys want to efect the corse of the battles, speed of the landgrab, ect.  They want  their bombing to afect something.

Furballers want to fight, twisty turny one on one, goggles and silk scarves, fights.  Bombers don't turn or twist so there no fun to shoot down.

Have I got it so far?

Strat guys are unhappy that they have no efect on anything.  they can't stop the horde, bombing strat targets doesn't do anything worthwile.

Furballers don't want to strenthen the strat system, cause that means they will have to go hunt the boring bombers.

It sounds to me that the only people that are happy are the furballers.  Hitech must balance this out so that nobody is happy ;)

No really I do think that the original strat system  worked   one factory refiinery ect.

Offline Pongo

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2004, 01:41:30 AM »
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Originally posted by Simaril
I have to disagree, pongo. The reason large numbers are so powerful is the huge impact we see from the horde. You cant defend against the horde anyway, so we now see the low side resorting to porkage to slow the attacking down. It works, and we often see near stagnation.

By making it possible to take bases with smaller numbers, the less populated side becomes ABLE to counterattack when the swarm strikes. By hitting the other side of the map, the horde would be drawn down in defense -- all the while, giving the outnumbered side something to do (other than helplessly watch the horde hammer bases down).

The ONLY time this idea would take effect is when the FH's are hit. Otherwise, its situation normal.

Remeber, this idea ONLY takes effect when FHs go down. Because all FHs rarely go down at the same time, right now we'll often see 5 minutes of effect from FH hits. When the first killed FH pops up, the attacking team relies on vulching to keep the base suppressed. I'd argue that's no different from keeping the hangars down longer.

Again , the real benefit somes when numbers are lower. Provided the mission thinks ahead, smaller groups can take bases with this idea. That helps the early morning (EST) crew, it helps the outnumbered side when the killer bees swarm.


And we can alwys still pork.


I believe you are totaly mistaken. Any advantage that the few smaller side guys might gain if they could disengage long enought to fly to the enemy strat would be totally eradicated at will by the larger side.
Cant believe you dont see this.
This change would totaly favour the larger side. Giving them an even more powerful way to stick it to the smaller side. A way that would not likley be answerable.
Its self evident. This is a strat change that would moslty only be excersised by the side with a numerical advantage.

Why add some other target to the game that can just be NOE suicide bombed by dweebs who want to ruin the game..why arm them to do so?

Offline Simaril

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2004, 06:21:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
I believe you are totaly mistaken. Any advantage that the few smaller side guys might gain if they could disengage long enought to fly to the enemy strat would be totally eradicated at will by the larger side.
Cant believe you dont see this.
 



I admit i'm missing something here pongo -- how exactly is getting vulched at a heavily outnumbered, capped field different from not being able to take off for an extra 10 minutes?

I guess I'm thinking that the best defense can be to attack elsewhere and deprive the swarm of the advantage of initiative. Responding to my attack lightens the numbers at their horded point, and makes it possible for my teammates to come in from the next base, and maybe break cap?
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Offline lazs2

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2004, 08:01:39 AM »
blackcross you were getting it right up until the end where you said the only people happy in AH are the furballers....

You must not read the board much or play AH looking for good furballs.   The game is set up so that no one has fun as much as they like.   That includes furballers.  

It is also a zero sum game.   every time you make things better for one group you make it worse for another.    Seems that the only solution is a group of carriers off to the side in the maps where furballs can happen.   with that out of the way..... the strat guys can get as maceavellian  and punative as they want...  It can be as compex and boreing as a chinesse puzzle for all I care.

saber.... you are correct... and endless furball at on spot would get boring 100% of the time but... It would be a blast for most of the time... it would be a relief when the strat people had shut down the map so that it was useless for our type of gameplay..

furballers would still play in other spots when there was something worthwile going on...  problem is... there is seldom a long enough or good enough fite on the maps we have now.

lazs

Offline Pongo

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2004, 10:34:47 AM »
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Originally posted by Simaril
I admit i'm missing something here pongo -- how exactly is getting vulched at a heavily outnumbered, capped field different from not being able to take off for an extra 10 minutes?

I guess I'm thinking that the best defense can be to attack elsewhere and deprive the swarm of the advantage of initiative. Responding to my attack lightens the numbers at their horded point, and makes it possible for my teammates to come in from the next base, and maybe break cap?


Your picking one small potential side effect of your proposed change(less vulching) attributing it to your change(without any support) and ignoring the fundimental truth of your proposed change.
Deep penetration strat raids are almost the exclusive capablility of the side with superior numbers.
When there is parity, sure why not give the more orginised side a target to hit that might impact the deadlock. I aggree its not a bad idea in that sense. But in implementation, it would only be done to countries that were allready in the bucket. We are talking about the MA here.

Offline Sabre

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Strat Proposal: FH/VH down times tied to "factories"
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2004, 12:21:11 PM »
Gosh, Lazs, it almost sounds like we agree on something:eek: .  Anyway, I look forward to TOD as an outlet for my immersion fetish.  It would be great to hear some more detail from HTC on where that's going.  The role-playing aspect is something I miss from my boxed-sim days (Aces over the Pacific, Falcon 3.0, Midway).
Sabre
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