Author Topic: P38 a super plane?  (Read 18582 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #180 on: December 03, 2004, 07:34:47 AM »
Okay, professor von Klump, now that we have determined that you can't even read the power loading figures on the chart you make your claims from, or you don't understand what they mean, and that you cannot understand how wingloading REALLY works, not to mention you use the "Joint Fighter Conference":rolleyes:  as reference material, is there anything else you want to use to exhibit your stupidity?

I wonder why Dean's "America's Hundred Thousand", a far more respected work than that drivel over the "Joint Fighter Conference" :rolleyes:,  has results of the acceleration tests that are diametricly opposed to your "facts"?

Oh, I have something else for you:

Ratings for the P-38L engines, the REAL power settings:
    [minutes]   Power     RPM      Manifold [in.Hg]            Altitude [ft]
Normal (no limit) 1,100  2,600          44                                30,000
Take Off (5)        1,475  3,000           54                                SL
Military (15)        1,475  3,000           54                               30,000
WEP     (5)          1,725  3,000           60                               28,700

Note that these ratings show WEP for the P-38L, not found in most publications, which show METO for the P-38L to be the same as WEP for a P-38J,  and no WEP rating at all for the P-38L.


Climb data, from Lockheed:

Max climb rate at sea level: 4,225 fpm (50% fuel, normal ammo) Max climb rate at 23,400 ft: 3,940 fpm Time to 23,400 ft: 5.94 minutes Time to 30,000 ft: 8.86 minutes Service Ceiling: 44,000 ft.


Speed data, from Lockheed:

The basic performance figures for the P-38L are as follows (from Lockheed factory test logbooks): Max speed at sea level: 352 mph Max speed at 5,500 ft : 369 mph Max speed at 23,500 ft. 440 mph (WEP) 5 minutes max. Max speed at critical alt: 444 mph @ 25,800 (WEP) 5 minutes max.


Data courtesy of C.C. Jordan, and Warren Bodie, taken from the Lockheed document archives by Warren Bodie, noted author, an Lockheed engineer.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #181 on: December 03, 2004, 07:40:11 AM »
Since you seem to be so enamored with the Luftwaffe opinions of U.S. Fighters, as I posted in another thread, here's a little Steinhoff for you. And Steinhoff was so well respected he eventually became the commander of the West German Air Force, and NATO in Europe.

One of the Luftwaffe's top aces, when asked which American fighter he thought to be the most dangerous surprised many by not even mentioning the P-51 Mustang. Johannes Steinhoff's answer was, "At high altitudes, 8,000 meters or higher, the P-47 was the most dangerous foe. [cut] Below 4,000 meters, the Lightning was untouchable. You could not out-turn them, or out-run them. It was suicide to try to climb out of a fight because the Lightning could quickly overtake you. I did shoot down several P-38's. This was largely because the pilot was not aware of my presence. Had they seen my approach, I do not believe that I would have been able to achieve a suitable firing position before the American would have turned onto my tail. If I was detected, I would dive away to safety. The early models of the Lightning were dangerous to dive from altitude because they accelerated too quickly. I believe this problem was overcome in later models."
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline gwshaw

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #182 on: December 03, 2004, 09:11:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bunch
It is in this document. (Page 8, Nov. 20)...actually there could have been several factors in the "stock" (I  use quotes because it is almost a certainty that this was not a stock plane - one could only expect that in going for this record they did everything possible to reduce it's weight) plane's favor, such as the 300lb weight advantage of having "only" a R-2800 engine.  It would have required less fuel & oil that Rare Bear also.  A stock F8-F has more wing area than Rare Bear & so might accellerate to Vy sooner (especially considering the F8F lifted off in 115' according to the Navy document).   Met. conditions have a lot to do with an aircraft's climb performence....blah blah blah i go on on & never shut up, do i?


That about covers most of what I was going to say. I did have an email exchange with the pilot's son a few years ago. Unfortunately that was 2-3 mail clients ago and I didn't keep the messages.

IIRC it was a standard squadron aircraft, probably USNR. It wastn't stripped down, but was sans ammunition and light fuel load. That could easily drop 1000 lbs from normal loaded weight.

Climb is all about excess horsepower. Rare Bear's small wing is going to penalize it compared to a stock machine. Rare Bear is going to have to climb at a higher speed, lowering excess power due to the power requirements at that speed, as well as the 375/TAS hp > thrust equation dropping thrust(lbs) down.

Prop efficiency may come into play as well. If Rare Bear is still using a speed prop it could penalize climb substantially.

Good point on met conditions, a nice, cold November day in Cleveland could make a substantial difference in TO and climb rate as well.

Greg Shaw

Offline Angus

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #183 on: December 03, 2004, 10:36:55 AM »
Hey Milo:
THis thread:
http://www.ww2.dk/

Once I did some cross testing there. It's not 100% correct, so take it with a grain of salt....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #184 on: December 03, 2004, 11:54:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Hey Milo:
THis thread:
http://www.ww2.dk/

Once I did some cross testing there. It's not 100% correct, so take it with a grain of salt....


Yes, that is why I said 'at least'. It was a quick check and could have missed some Gruppes.

Offline Angus

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #185 on: December 03, 2004, 12:29:56 PM »
Hey Milo.
The error I found was a wrong location, not numbers.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #186 on: December 03, 2004, 12:36:02 PM »
Quote
Oh, I have something else for you:


Hey can post figures on the BBS and have them be gospel with nothing to back them up?

Again I have posted FLIGHT TESTED FACTS and the DOCUMENTATION.

Hey the Me 262 broke the sound barrier in a dive from 27000 feet.  

Source: JV 44 Pilots

Can you fix that Pyro??

Milo,

On your numbers...

Let me help you to understand a Military status report.  The number "On Strength" is not the number a force can bring to bear at the tip of spear.  That would be the number SERVICABLE.  You can check just about any Luftwaffe status and see that the " On Strength" column generally runs about twice as many as the "serviceable" number after Barbarossa.  The "servicable" aircraft are the ones that can fly...

752 single engine dayfighters for the entire Luftwaffe on this day in 1942...

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se28342.htm

If you will cross check the "On Strength" number for March 1942 with the chart I posted on page 1 of this thread you will see it compares very favourably.  

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 12:50:22 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Dispair

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #187 on: December 03, 2004, 12:52:12 PM »
Folks you are forgetting one very important thing, by the time americans joined the 2nd front, most German aces were shot down by Soviet pilots. And no p-38 wasnt the best plane. it was average, la-7 and Yak-9u were by far superior. In 44 the air was dominated by La-5, La-7, Yak-9 and american pilots were fighting 20-25 y.o fresh German noobs.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 12:56:43 PM by Dispair »

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #188 on: December 03, 2004, 12:56:31 PM »
I told you what they were, and what they were from. If you can't grasp that concept, tough. I don't have a scanner, and I don't have the original documents anyway. Go look for yourself, they are Lockheed documents from their test pilot logs from the P-38 program. Don't believe it? Tough, I don't care. You can't even read and understand a chart you posted. Look around and you can probably find out how to reach Warren Bodie, he's a former Lockheed engineer, he has copies.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #189 on: December 03, 2004, 12:57:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dispair
Folks you are forgetting one very important thing, by the time americans joined the 2nd front, most German aces were shot down by Soviet pilots. And no p-38 wasnt the best plane. it was average, la-7 and Yak-9u were by far superior. In 44 the air was dominated by La-5, La-7, Yak-9 and american pilots were fighting 20-25 y.o fresh German noobs.




:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Dispair

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #190 on: December 03, 2004, 01:03:33 PM »
If you can speak either German or Russian try looking up historical documents on internet, especially in their respective search engines. You will find plenty of evidence.

Offline thrila

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #191 on: December 03, 2004, 01:12:29 PM »
German air losses in the west was much higher.
"Willy's gone and made another,
Something like it's elder brother-
Wing tips rounded, spinner's bigger.
Unbraced tailplane ends it's figure.
One-O-nine F is it's name-
F is for futile, not for fame."

Offline Guppy35

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #192 on: December 03, 2004, 01:14:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dispair
Folks you are forgetting one very important thing, by the time americans joined the 2nd front, most German aces were shot down by Soviet pilots. And no p-38 wasnt the best plane. it was average, la-7 and Yak-9u were by far superior. In 44 the air was dominated by La-5, La-7, Yak-9 and american pilots were fighting 20-25 y.o fresh German noobs.


So you are saying the Luftwaffe pilots the 38 drivers of the 1st, 14th and 82nd FGs were fighting in the MTO in 42 were noobs?

Dan/Slack
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Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #193 on: December 03, 2004, 01:14:46 PM »
Quote
told you what they were, and what they were from. If you can't grasp that concept, tough. I don't have a scanner, and I don't have the original documents anyway. Go look for yourself, they are Lockheed documents from their test pilot logs from the P-38 program. Don't believe it? Tough, I don't care. You can't even read and understand a chart you posted. Look around and you can probably find out how to reach Warren Bodie, he's a former Lockheed engineer, he has copies.


Where is that whine meter I had laying around.......


Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #194 on: December 03, 2004, 01:16:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dispair

Folks you are forgetting one very important thing, by the time americans joined the 2nd front, most German aces were shot down by Soviet pilots.

If you can speak either German or Russian try looking up historical documents on internet, especially in their respective search engines. You will find plenty of evidence.



Are you saying the Russians in 1942 had kicked German butt? :D :D Good joke.