Author Topic: P38 a super plane?  (Read 19486 times)

Offline Wotan

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #150 on: December 01, 2004, 03:24:49 PM »
Range or deep penetration was not a primary issue over the eastern front. However, as I suggested read something about the air over Kurland for instance.

The LW may not have strayed deep over there own lines like they did in BoB but the sheer numbers and quality of late war Soviet aircraft was well beyond what the western allies faced over Western Europe in '43. (a4s, a5s and G6s)

You make the same mistake Widewing makes. The LW in the west weren't tasked with attacking allied fighter strength but to go after the allied bombers.

Their freedom of action was more restrictive then the allies. The allies could stand off and above and engage the LW on their terms. While there were some notable air battles between fighters these were for the most part limited.

Read Johnson's account above of his attack on the 4 190s. He's 5000ft above as they attack bombers. He then dives and attacks. The advantage is clearly in his hands.

 Not that AH or game can re- create 'history' but if you have flown any of the Ah scenarios / events that focused on the bomber war you would understand why those attacking the buffs, even if they out number the allied escorts, are at a greater risk to those escorts while they are engaging the bombers.
 
Just sheer numbers don't tell the whole story.

In Kurland JG54 flying A8s and a few A9s attacking low flying Il2s (many of them) were even more at risk to Soviet fighters, who not only had more operational freedom but out numbered them. Fighting plane types like late war Yaks, La-5FNS and La7s, P-39Qs etc... at less than 3000m while outnumbered would seem to me far more 'risky' then what you saw in the west in '43.

Offline Bodhi

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #151 on: December 01, 2004, 04:39:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
I realize they are not flaps.  And I was correct.  They do exactly what you state.  That is NOT solving the compressibility problem.  They correct the symptoms and not the problem.


It is a solution to the problem Crump if the spoilers are properly employed.  When employed they force the nose up thereby preventing compressability...

It may not be glamorous, but it does solve the problem with the 38's compressability in combat.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #152 on: December 01, 2004, 05:06:25 PM »
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It may not be glamorous, but it does solve the problem with the 38's compressability in combat.


You are correct in that it gives the P38 the ability to fight better.  Where as before it could not dive at all, now it can dive and recover from it.

It solved the problem like Dayquil solves the flu.  You feel better but you still have the flu.

Quote
Yep you are right Milo, I was looking late 43 and I see that both the 20th and 55th were getting early Js at the end of 43 into 44. Issue is the same however as you are then comparing the J to those early Jugs only capable of carrying a drop tank on the centerline.


According to the notes on that document has the P47D11 carrying a single tank centerline.   The P38 got the benefit of two tanks during the test.

 



Note 1 above ^

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #153 on: December 01, 2004, 05:42:10 PM »
Crumpp, why do you keep posting that advertizing propaganda chart? Where on that chart does it give the capacity of the dts supposidly fitted to the a/c?

Is that 550 or 950 mi for the P-51?

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #154 on: December 01, 2004, 06:58:49 PM »
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Is that 550 or 950 mi for the P-51?


It's 550 for the P51B.

Crumpp

Offline Canaris

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #155 on: December 01, 2004, 08:13:08 PM »
In my sense, the P38 is practically a super plane.  With its 4x50s and 1x20mm its able to take out planes quickly and its got a large ammo load.  Its got a great acceleration and quite fast.  Depending on the pilot's skills, it can out turn a spit 5 and other great turning planes.  Its can get to high altitudes quickly and still carry a large ordance payload of 2x1000 lbs and 10 rockets or the 2x150 gallon DT's giving it great range.  Its only downfall its not a great plane to intercept planes coming in range to attack the base where most people grab 109s and spit 5s.  Other than that, the P38 is basically a super plane.


Canaris

Offline Widewing

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #156 on: December 01, 2004, 08:56:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
You make the same mistake Widewing makes. The LW in the west weren't tasked with attacking allied fighter strength but to go after the allied bombers.


I just spent a few hours thumbing through Caldwell and Spick. There are many instances where the Luftwaffe specifically targeted escorts. Granted, the purpose was to clear the way for other fighters to attack the bombers, but the notion that the Luftwaffe simply ignored the escorts is a significant stretch. Spick goes into considerable detail on GAF tactics.

I also looked through several squadron histories and they also show many instances where they were attacked by large numbers of GAF fighters.

There's no doubt that the GAF wanted to kill the bombers as their first priority. However, they had to deal with the escort. To leave the escort unmolested was foolhardy, because the escorts would be all over them in short order.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #157 on: December 01, 2004, 09:01:12 PM »
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Crumpp, why do you keep posting that advertizing propaganda chart? Where on that chart does it give the capacity of the dts supposidly fitted to the a/c?


It's hardly advertisement, Milo.  Read gwshaw's post.

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #158 on: December 01, 2004, 09:22:09 PM »
Quote
Widewing says:
Luftwaffe simply ignored the escorts is a significant stretch.


How in world do you get that concept from:

Quote
Wotan says:
The LW in the west weren't tasked with attacking allied fighter strength but to go after the allied bombers.


Only conclusion is your the one doing the stretching and selective reading.  Or English is a second language and you failed hooked on phonics.  Speaking of which, I am encouraged that your making an effort to at least research the other side before posting.

Not surprising.  You've been long on wind and short on flight tested documentation this whole thread.


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There's no doubt that the GAF wanted to kill the bombers as their first priority. However, they had to deal with the escort. To leave the escort unmolested was foolhardy, because the escorts would be all over them in short order.


Exactly.  This should not be a surprise.  Once Doolittle freed up the USAAF fighters in Dec '44 it was pretty much all over but the crying.  USAAF fighters showed up with altitude over the fields and began bouncing the Luftwaffe on their climb out.  This prevented an attack altogether or at the very least a cohesive one. With superior training and superior numbers, the USAAF was able to slaughter the Jagdwaffe.  Interesting thing,  If you examine the casualties, the pre-1943 trained pilots of the Jagdwaffe died at pretty much the same rate throughout the war.  The Post-1943 pilots died like flies with an almost 98 percent attrition rate.  If they survived their first 6 missions their chances of surviving the whole war went up astronomically.

Crumpp

Offline Widewing

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #159 on: December 01, 2004, 09:26:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gwshaw

Well considering a stock, loaded F8F-2 set a climb record of standing start to 10,000 ft in 94 seconds in 1947 at the Cleveland air races, that doesn't sound to implausible.

Again, it all depends on the power ratings. 2100 hp would probably give right about 4800 fpm. I will see if I can find some starting data to do a workup on the F8F-1/2, but 5850 fpm is probably reachable on about 2500 hp.


Greg, I have serious doubts that the record setting F8F-2 was stock, or loaded to normal weight. Why? Because Lyle Shelton's modified F8F-2, Rare Bear, currently holds the time-to-climb record. Rare Bear reached 3,000 meters in 91 seconds, but it was powered by a 4,200 hp R-3350 with NOx injection! Moreover, it weighs about 500 pounds less than a stock F8F-2. As they say in the Fulton market, "there's something fishy here." If Shelton's monster can attain 542 mph @ 5,000 feet, I just don't see a stock F8F-2 climbing 10k just 3 seconds after the fastest piston aircraft on earth reaches 9,750 feet and do it on little more than 1/2 the horsepower.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #160 on: December 01, 2004, 10:01:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Or English is a second language and you failed hooked on phonics.


LOLOLOL

Crumpp, please don't attempt to be witty, it only exposes a weakness.

By the way, you mentioned that you were a combat veteran. For some reason, I envision in my mind scenes of swinging purses and hair pulling. ;) Seriously, with what service did you serve and where?

Doolittle's order to release the fighters to pursue and interdict the GAF was issued towards the end of January, 1944.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline MiloMorai

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #161 on: December 02, 2004, 12:50:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
It's hardly advertisement, Milo.  Read gwshaw's post.

Crumpp


Yes it is, as it was produced by Vought,:)

Then there is, from the link you provided and I posted earlier which you have ignored.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/III/AAF-III-2.html

Since January, the range of the P-51 had been extended. Without external tanks that aircraft could escort to a point approximately 475 miles from base, a distance roughly equal to the maximum escort range of the P-47 equipped with two 108-gallon auxiliary wing tanks.

Says much for the Vought chart. Do you only use links when it suits your agenda? Would seem so.

Either Greg, who I respect because he is not BSer, or Baugher is incorrect.

The first block consisted of ten service test P-38J-1-LOs. These were quickly followed by 210 P-83J-5-LOs with two 55-US gallon additional fuel tanks in the leading edge space previously occupied by the intercoolers and thus restoring maximum internal fuel capacity to 410 gallons (1010 gallons with drop tanks).

On the P-47.

Production batches from the P-47D-20-RE onward were fitted with a "universal" wing which could carry a variety of drop tanks or bombs.

Underwing pylons were introduced on the D-15-RE and D-15-RA production blocks. These enabled a drop tank or a bomb to be carried underneath each wing in addition to the stores carried on the belly shackles. Fuel changes had to be made to incorporate plumbing for the underwing tanks.


At the time, early 1944 remember, the P-47 model could only carry a belly dt. The best range they could get was to Dummer Lake, a flying time of 3 hours. It is not til April '44 that the 56FG mentions a kill with a -15 plus a/c and they were still flying the older models.


You still have not answered how much fuel was in the dts in the Vought chart.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 05:54:25 AM by MiloMorai »

Offline BUG_EAF322

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #162 on: December 02, 2004, 11:10:59 AM »
crump u do like the p38 was the only plane with compression.

take the 109 for instance ...guess what

it compressed too

and those dive flaps where mounted lateron on the p47

wich is known as an excellent diver.

ur comparisons with flu is way off but  it shows ur hard headed ignorant luftwaffe groupy

but i love killing those types in the MA in my "super" p38

please get an german name that would statisfy me more

got one for u "arsloch" "shimmlippe"

or  "sheiss gumpel "
« Last Edit: December 02, 2004, 11:16:35 AM by BUG_EAF322 »

Offline bunch

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #163 on: December 02, 2004, 02:57:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Greg, I have serious doubts that the record setting F8F-2 was stock, or loaded to normal weight. Why? Because Lyle Shelton's modified F8F-2, Rare Bear, currently holds the time-to-climb record. Rare Bear reached 3,000 meters in 91 seconds, but it was powered by a 4,200 hp R-3350 with NOx injection! Moreover, it weighs about 500 pounds less than a stock F8F-2. As they say in the Fulton market, "there's something fishy here." If Shelton's monster can attain 542 mph @ 5,000 feet, I just don't see a stock F8F-2 climbing 10k just 3 seconds after the fastest piston aircraft on earth reaches 9,750 feet and do it on little more than 1/2 the horsepower.

My regards,

Widewing


It is in this document. (Page 8, Nov. 20)...actually there could have been several factors in the "stock" (I  use quotes because it is almost a certainty that this was not a stock plane - one could only expect that in going for this record they did everything possible to reduce it's weight) plane's favor, such as the 300lb weight advantage of having "only" a R-2800 engine.  It would have required less fuel & oil that Rare Bear also.  A stock F8-F has more wing area than Rare Bear & so might accellerate to Vy sooner (especially considering the F8F lifted off in 115' according to the Navy document).   Met. conditions have a lot to do with an aircraft's climb performence....blah blah blah i go on on & never shut up, do i?

Offline BUG_EAF322

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #164 on: December 02, 2004, 03:05:26 PM »
And who the fk are u with ur 13th post ??

Afraid to show ur real bbs name ??