Author Topic: P38 a super plane?  (Read 16929 times)

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #390 on: December 14, 2004, 04:47:44 PM »
Quote
It only gets complicated when you begin to compare acceleration/climb at different speeds. Acceleration/climb are a pair of Siamese twins at any constant speed, though.)


Different Speeds is different best climbing speeds?

Crumpp

Offline F4UDOA

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #391 on: December 14, 2004, 10:15:48 PM »
Hohun,

Thanks for coming back to discuss this as usual. You surprised me with your post, I wasn't expecting that from you. Anyway glad your back;)

Your statement

Quote
Thus, same aircraft that has the better climb at any given speed also out-accelerates the other aircraft at that given speed by the same factor.


I absolutely agree-unless-something changes in the condition of the aircraft in one state and not the other. For example if one aircraft were to lower it's landing gear while climbing but now when accelerating the results are no longer constant.

For example I have a chart from Vought that shows the effect of opening the Cowl flaps 1/3, 2/3 and full open has on climb rate. It is as much as several hundred FPM. Then if you compare the climb to the corresponding rate of acceleration when the cowl flaps are closed the acceleration will be better relative to the loss of drag.

So I agree with your statement but I would amend it to say Thus, same aircraft that has the better climb at any given speed also out-accelerates the other aircraft at that given speed by the same factor as long as the conditon of the aircraft remains the same in both states.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Levier's report on P-38's in the ETO
« Reply #392 on: December 15, 2004, 12:37:31 AM »
So much has been made of the lackluster performance of the P-38 with the 8th AF, I thought it might be nice to have an inside look at what went wrong.

Below is a copy of Levier's report on his time in Europe.

Report on P-38s in the ETO, by Tony Levier.

“Having just returned from a four month mission to England on 29 May 1944 where I had been testing and demonstrating some of the new improvements on our P-38J’s, I filed the following report:”

Immediately upon arriving in England, I proceeded to the 55th FG HQ at Nuthamstead, an airbase in East Anglia, north of London, where conditions were pretty grim as far as their P-38’s were concerned. They had just received their first P-38J’s, and had no operational information on them. Their lack of information concerning correct power combinations was appalling.

For combat missions some pilots were using anywhere from 2000RPM to 3000RPM with whatever manifold pressure that would giver them their desired air speed. Some of these pilots were blowing up their engines with high manifold pressure and critically low RPM, while others were running out of gas and failing to complete missions because of such power combinations for continual cruise at 2800RPM with 24” of manifold pressure. Many returned with hardly more than a cupful of gas remaining in their tanks, while others were forced to bail out over enemy territory.

The reason they were cruising at 2600, 2800 and even 3000RPM was that somewhere along the line they had been taught to use high RPM and low manifold pressure. They were under the impression that should they get jumped by a Jerry they could get their power faster if they already had their engines running at high RPM.

The fact is you can get your power quicker if you have low RPM and high boost which gives you a high er turbosupercharger speed. With turbochargers putting out high boost you only have to increase your engine RPM to get your desired power.

Rather than add to their confusion with power curves and range charts we devised the following rule of thumb for their long range missions. It is simple and easy to remember and insures maximum engine efficiency/fuel economy: USE 2300RPM AND 36” MANIFOLD PRESSURE AS THE MAXIMUM FOR AUTO LEAN AND CRUISE CONDITIONS. IN REDUCING POWER FROM THIS SETTING, REDUCE ½” TO 1” FOR EACH 100RPM; FOR GOING ABOVE THIS SETTING PUT YOUR MIXTURE IN AUTO RICH AND INCREASE THE MANIFOLD PRESSURE 2” FOR EACH 100RPM.   

After using this rule the boys marveled at their increased range. Some were returning from 4 hour missions with as much as 150 to 200 gallons of fuel left. Quite a bit more than the cupfuls they had been returning with.

The day after I arrived at another base in England some P-38 pilots who had been escorting Forts over mainland Europe reported a “sort of engine trouble”.

When pinned down they said their engines had been surging and momentarily cutting out while they were flying at altitude under reduced power. The passed it off saying, “it’s probably caused by some extra low octane gas.”

But after further discussion with the boys I suddenly remembered a series of tests we had run back home during flight test operations for proper turbosupercharger settings. As I recalled, the symptoms were very similar.

So I obtained permission from the 55th FG CO to test a P-38 at altitude for proper turbosupercharger operation, and sure enough, the turbosupercharger on the left engine was so rigged that the resulting backpressure and high turbosupercharger wheel speed caused the airflow to the engine to surge, resulting in erratic operation and inability to pull power.

Upon landing, I reported the trouble and recommended that each Lightning driver be given the following procedure for checking his ’38 at altitude for proper turbosupercharger operation: At 30K feet set your RPM at 2600RPM and 37” manifold pressure and back off slowly on the power down to 10 to 15” manifold pressure. While doing this, fix your eyes on the manifold pressure and note if there is the slightest engine failure or surging. Record the exact manifold pressure at which this surging occurs.

Now repeat the process beginning with 2300RPM and 37” manifold pressure , and again record the boost at which surging occurs. (At this lower RPM it should occur 2 or 3” higher.)

If, after you’ve completed this procedure, either of the recorded manifold pressures are above 22”, it indicated the turbosupercharger regulator is set improperly. Tell your mechanic the boost at which the roughness occurred and he will make the necessary adjustments.
 
[/i]

Read the above carefully, and remember what happened to those units, and how they performed. This is not an indictment of the pilots, or the mechanics. It is not even an indictment of the 55th FG HQ and staff really. This IS an indictment of the 8th AF command staff, and the USAAC. It is ultimately the responsibility of the command staff to ensure that units they send into combat are properly trained and well informed. The above report goes a long way to explain why the 8th AF did so poorly with the P-38, while other units performed quite well with it. At the time of this report, and during Levier's visit, the 8th AF had been using the P-38 in combat for about 6-8 months, and had no better grasp on how to operate and maintain it than the above report shows. That is without a doubt inexcuseable. But much of what the USAAC, and especially the 8th AF command staff, along with the War Production Board, did was intolerable and inexcuseable. The lack of information didn't just apply to the new P-38J, but to the P-38 from the very beginning. I really don't think appaling is a strong enough word.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Scherf

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My brain hurts
« Reply #393 on: December 15, 2004, 04:23:49 AM »
In the words of Ricky Ricardo, "Joo got some 'splainin' to do!"

Anywhere I can find an explanation of what the charts on the sheets mean?

Cheers,

Scherf




Dang scientific folk, with your high-falutin' theories....
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #394 on: December 15, 2004, 05:17:49 AM »
Verge,

We are beyond storytime.

Quote
For example I have a chart from Vought that shows the effect of opening the Cowl flaps 1/3, 2/3 and full open has on climb rate. It is as much as several hundred FPM. Then if you compare the climb to the corresponding rate of acceleration when the cowl flaps are closed the acceleration will be better relative to the loss of drag.


I noticed the same thing in the FW charts.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 15, 2004, 05:22:16 AM by Crumpp »

Offline Angus

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #395 on: December 15, 2004, 06:02:25 AM »
Wonder how the 38 would have done with a pair of Merlin 66's +25 :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #396 on: December 15, 2004, 07:04:58 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus
Wonder how the 38 would have done with a pair of Merlin 66's +25 :D


Terribly. The Merlins were heavier, had less power at sea level, and less power at altitude. The P-38 would have been slower and had a lower rate of climb.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #397 on: December 15, 2004, 07:11:55 AM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Verge,

We are beyond storytime.

Crumpp


It's Virgil, pofessor von Klump. Evidently you aren't beyond story time, you should probably be getting ready to be put down for your nap.

And that isn't a story. It is an official report by a Lockheed test pilot on what he found during a tour of the 8th AF units equipped with the P-38. It is fact. It is taken from the P-38 pilots logs and reports, official Lockheed documents, and found published in several books, such as "Lockheed P-38 Lightning" by Steve Pace.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Angus

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #398 on: December 15, 2004, 07:12:38 AM »
What was the Power of the Allison?
And weight for comparison?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #399 on: December 15, 2004, 07:18:59 AM »
Interesting thing about those cowl flaps, they remind me of a comment from a test pilot report.

According to Lockheed test pilot Ray Meskimen, if you were not climbing, you could close the doors to the intercoolers atleast partially, and gain up to 15MPH in top speed. You could not do it during a power climb because the air volume through the intercoolers would drop enuogh to cause detonation and reduced power.

It is interesting what a small reduction in drag will do for you.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #400 on: December 15, 2004, 07:38:58 AM »
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Originally posted by Angus
What was the Power of the Allison?
And weight for comparison?


The Allisons in the P-38J were rated at 1600HP at WEP. In the P-38L they were rated at 1725HP at WEP. THE USAAC downrated the P-38L by disallowing WEP (see the report from Levier above for their reasons) settings on its engines, but the Lockheed and Allison officials gave the ratings to units in the field anyway, and showed them how to achieve them. The P-38 maintain sea level power to nearly 30K feet, something only the P-47 could do among single engine fighters. It was VERY important.

I don't have the weight handy, but it is around 1000 pounds. Lockheed engineer Warren Bodie (not an engineer on the P-38, but later an author of a book on the P-38, who had unlimited access to the P-38 data from Lockheed and Allison) said that the Merlin was heavier by more than 200 pounds, and the installation would have "dirtied up" the airframe aerodynamicly. The Merlin was also not designed to be turbocharged, meaning that it would have given up considerable power above 20K.

A FAR better addition to the P-38 would have been the Hamilton Standard High Activity Paddle prop. It was far more efficent and reliable than the Curtiss Electric props used on the P-38. Lockheed spec'd the P-38 to have better props several times, but the USAAC and the War Production Board had the ultimate decision, and denied their use. Lockheed and Allison built the P-38K-1-Lo, which had a more powerful engine and the Hamilton Standard props (only one was built). Do a search for "P-38K" and find out how good it was.

All you really have to do to see what the P-38 would have gained by the use of the Hamilton Standard props is to look at the difference in performance of the P-47 when equipped with both the Hamilton Standard and the Curtiss Electric props. One model change of the P-47 consisted only of the change in props. The difference in performance was DRAMATIC. Later, even more performance was gained by going from a 3 blade Hamilton Standard to a four blade version. I don't have my P-47 data handy, but I'm sure one of the P-47 guys will have the data. The change from the Curtiss Electric to the Hamilton Standard came somewhere close to the P-47D-11 model. The P-47 guys have been asking for this change for a long time here.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2004, 06:23:35 PM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Crumpp

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #401 on: December 15, 2004, 07:39:23 AM »
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It is an official report by a Lockheed test pilot on what he found during a tour of the 8th AF units equipped with the P-38. It is fact. It is taken from the P-38 pilots logs and reports, official Lockheed documents, and found published in several books, such as "Lockheed P-38 Lightning" by Steve Pace.




So it is a report blaming the Military for the planes performance by the company, Verge?

It is interesting what added drag will do the performance.  I don't know how small it is though.

Professor Von Clumpp

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #402 on: December 15, 2004, 08:00:27 AM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
So it is a report blaming the Military for the planes performance by the company, Verge?

It is interesting what added drag will do the performance.  I don't know how small it is though.

Professor Von Clumpp


No, it is a report   STATING FACTS about the lack of information and training in the 8th AF. The 8th AF is the only AF that had serious problems with the P-38, and the fact that they simply were not following proper procedure was the cause. It is obvious that Levier found the causes of the problems they had, and that the problems were with the 8th AF and procedures, not with the plane itself. Levier showed them how to resolve their issues by showing them that they were not properly trained and did not have the correct information. ANY piece of equipment will have serious problems if used and maintained that far from the way it was designed. The report states the problems that existed, the causes for the problems (obviously the 8th AF was screwing the pooch), and the resolution. It really is simple if you read and comprehend.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #403 on: December 15, 2004, 08:04:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
So it is a report blaming the Military for the planes performance by the company, Verge?

It is interesting what added drag will do the performance.  I don't know how small it is though.

Professor Von Clumpp


Oh, and by the way, I find it VERY interesting that you want to use Lockheed RECOMMENDATIONS as the gospel on flap usage, but you want to ignore what Lockheed and Allison said about the 8th AF, and their ratings for the P-38L. But then, I'd expect nothing less from you. You seem to love to pick and choose that which you think supports your arguement, and vehemently deny the rest, even coming from the EXACT same source. You can't even differentiate between a recommendation and an absolute limit.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Angus

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P38 a super plane?
« Reply #404 on: December 15, 2004, 08:29:28 AM »
Hmm
" The Merlin was also not designed to be turbocharged, meaning that it would have given up considerable power above 20K. "

Spitfires were cruising at 43K in 1942.
Not designed for a turbocharger? By 1942 the RR had 2 with an intercooler between, so power was quite good at high alt.
Merlin 66 or 70 could peak out at close to 1700 hp.
It looks as if there is quite enough space in the Nacelles.
And if there had been a drag penalty, well, it's a different setup anyway with the air intake.
Wonder instead how a Griffon powered P38 would have performed, hehe 2200 horses grrrrrrr...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)