P38 a super plane?

[Crumpp]

Whooa,  Honest mistake man.  Got if off of Rings site.  I will let him know someone passed a bad doc.


Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Time for some more facts on the P38. I always thought the P 38 was a steller diver. However, looking at the facts, it seems even this is another MODERN creation.

Lets look at those dive speeds and the effects of the dive flaps:



Boy, a top speed of 440mph!

Now lets check out the opposition:



Wow! The Luftwaffe fighters don't even start showing any symptoms until they are going over 100 mph FASTER than the P38 below 13,100 feet!!

Crumpp

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Crumpp
That document came right from PRO Rings site.  I fail to see any relevant information that was removed?

Crumpp

Editing a document to suit one's agenda will be viewed as being disengenuous, if not outright dishonest. Post the whole document and allow readers to draw their own conclusions.

Here's an easier to read dive chart for the P-38L:



How about a roll rate chart? Note the comparisons at high speeds.



Here's a speed chart. Note that this is Lockheed data, not that of the USAAF, who did not authorize full use of the Allison engine's rated power. I'm sure that I have a copy of the original somewhere in my files. I will look for it and scan it.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
I just posted the entire production series for the FW-190A (15186 units total).  Do not know about 109's but I find 35000 to 39000 Bf-109s to be a little optimistic.  

Forgot about this little bit of mis-deseption by Crumpp.

You will remember Crumpp I said, Fw190 with no model letter. What does Crumpp give us but 190 A and D, and 152H numbers. He completely forgets, for whatever reason, the F and G models. With these models the production is ~20k. The F and G were capable of shooting down enemy a/c and there was 'experten'(aces) in them.

Crumpp, 109 production was in the 35-36k range which included Hungarian production.

[Widewing]

I had forgotten that I had scanned in the original roll rate document. Here it is. Note that this data was taken by Col. Ben Kelsey.



My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Here's a dive chart for the P-47D-30. Test pilot Herb Fisher was doing a series of tests for the propeller division of Curtiss-Wright.
I literally have a stack of these. This was one I scanned for web use. Fisher routinely exceeded Mach .80 and reached Mach .83 on occasion. Fisher made in excess of 150 dives during the program.



My regards,

Widewing

[Crumpp]

I just posted the entire production series for the FW- 190A (15186 units total). Do not know about 109's but I find 35000 to 39000 Bf-109s to be a little optimistic.

He completely forgets, for whatever reason, the F and G models.

Umm the F and G models are ground attack varients.  The discussion was on fighters.  On average an F or G with the ETC 50 or later ETC 71 racks is 30-40 kph slower than an FW-190A.
They're experten in them for sure.  Guy's like Rudel for example.

Crumpp, 109 production was in the 35-36k range which included Hungarian production.

Since the comparison was USAAF vs Luftwaffe fighters we can now add in the RAF, RCAF, Free French, Russians, and don't forget the Brazilians!

Anybody got the numbers of Allied fighters vs Axis??

I am sure the Luftwaffe hordes will overwhelm them in numbers...

Editing a document to suit one's agenda will be viewed as being disengenuous, if not outright dishonest. Post the whole document and allow readers to draw their own conclusions.

1.  I did not edit it.  It came off of:

http://prodocs.netfirms.com/

2.  The "edited" portion had NOTHING to do with my post.

3.  I wrote Ring to let him know.

All in all it's your blustering that is disingenuous.

Again.  The P38L was easily out dove by both Luftwaffe fighter types.

Here's an easier to read dive chart for the P-38L:

Did I miss something on the P38L chart you made up on Power Point.  The POH cautions NOT to exceed the speed of 420mph by more than 15-20 mph.  Yet you list 480mph as the fastest dive the P38L can do in the low speed band.  

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Umm the F and G models are ground attack varients.  The discussion was on fighters.  On average an F or G with the ETC 50 or later ETC 71 racks is 30-40 kph slower than an FW-190A.
They're experten in them for sure.  Guy's like Rudel for example.

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edit: not relavent
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Since many of  the P-38, P-47 P-51, Spitfire, Typhoon, Hurricane, etc were all JUST used as fighter bombers many of their number should be deducted from their total numbers using your logic Crumpp. The F and G did provide escort for their mates, so were also used as just fighters. What that 'boost juic' they carried was not enough to compensate for the drag fixtures. Seem to recall you saying that is why the 'boost juice' was left in the a/c and taken out of the pure fighter.

A jabo or fighter-bomber is still a fighter.

Some other 'experten' were Dorffel who had ~30, Keenel with ~34,  Seyffardt with ~30 and Dommeratzky with ~38 and all in F models.

Crumpp, if you can remember the 109 and 190 production number was posted in resonse to your BS post.

quote: The USAAF made more fighter aircraft in few months than Germans did the entire war.

my reply: Germany produced about 50-55,000 109s and 190s. Now American production was good but not that good.

[Crumpp]

A jabo or fighter-bomber is still a fighter.

Exactly and you will find the Jabo-einsatz's not only listed in the Flugzeug-Handbuch but will find them assigned to the Jabostaffel of the Geschwader.  These are FW-190A's. These are fighters which can carry bombs and are equipped with the basic hardpoint and drop equipment standard on the FW-190A. They are included in the production figures I gave out.  NONE of them have the ETC 50 or 71 wing racks, Grossebombenelecrik, or additional armour protection.

So including FIGHTER-bombers like the P38's transferred from the 9th AF against the FW-190A FIGHTER-bombers of the jabostaffels, which did participate routinely in interceptions, is very valid.  These planes are included in the comparison.

What you will not find is FW-190F's and G's assigned to the Jabostaffel.  

You will find FW-190F's and FW-190G's assigned to dedicated Ground attack units such as StukaGeschwaders, SchnelKampfGeschwaders, and SchlachtGeschwaders.  These aircraft not only have different engine setups but loads of specialized equipment that increases their effectiveness as a ground attack platform but they trade pure fighter performance to do it.  

Now in the early transition period you will find some jabo-einsatz's in these units.  Once the ground attack varients were developed however the jabo-einsatz's disappear.  By 1944 ground attack units were using ground attack aircraft, not fighters that could carry a bomb.

The F and G did provide escort for their mates, so were also used as just fighters.

Your wrong on this.  The ground attack units were normally covered by a Jagdgeschwader.  I know you have a copy of Bookie's book.  Read it.

my reply: Germany produced about 50-55,000 109s and 190s. Now American production was good but not that good.

And is not a valid comparision for FIGHTER production figures.  Additionally those numbers include, as you pointed out, airframes manufactured for other axis aligned nations and a few neutral countries.  If we want to compare that then we need to include all the Allied nations fighter forces arrayed against the Luftwaffe as well.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Andrew's book does mention them being used as escort for their bomb laden brethern. It is you that has to re-read the book.

Hungarian production of the 109 was ~3000.

Even using your warped logic, your statement, "The USAAF made more fighter aircraft in few months than Germans did the entire war" is still BS. It took 4 years of P-51 production to equal Fw190 so called 'fighter' production. So ~48 months(4x12) is only a 'few months'?  Do you even remember what you wrote?

The US-GB should have re-designated their ground attack a/c A-47, A-51, Spitfire Bx etc, etc as well as re-designating the units BSs since all they did was haul bombs, using your logic.

Now tell me how those 4 mentioned, flying Fw190Fs became aces if they only were used for ground attack. Must have dropped their bombs on their 'kills'.

You should read the account of Buchner (58 total) of II./SG 2 who flew a pure fighter mission with possible Barkhorn** over Sevasopol. (** the a/c had 2 black chevrons) Then there is Lambert, a Schlachtflieger pilot who had 116 claims. Not bad for a 'pure' bomber/attack pilot. You still want to claim the F and G were 'pure' bomber/attack a/c?


OBW, I had a cousin check out that 190S. Yes there is a MW50 decal on it but was told that the a/c did not carry or have installed MW50, ever, as there was no room for it.

[Crumpp]

Milo says:
Andrew's book does mention them being used as escort for their bomb laden brethern. It is you that has to re-read the book.

Lets not be obtuse.  The exception not the rule.

Crumpp says:
The ground attack units normally were covered by a Jagdgeschwader.

"The USAAF made more fighter aircraft  in few months than Germans did the entire war" is still BS.

For just the P51 yes, it is a BS statement.  The comparison is between fighter aircraft not just the P51.  The USAAF had several different models of fighter remember?

You still want to claim the F and G were 'pure' bomber/attack a/c?

They were attack aircraft.  Yes, Milo they were designed for the ground support role (FW-190F) or the long-range fast attack bomber role (FW-190G) NOT an Air Superiority Fighter role. Could they defend themselves IF NECESSARY from enemy fighters?  Sure they could.  Does not mean though they were designed or employed as fighters, NO.

Then there is Lambert, a Schlachtflieger pilot who had 116 claims.

Lambert was very much the exception.

Lambert is the only Sclachtflieiger pilot with a number of kills who did not serve in a JG.  

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/tank.html

Remember Rudel got kills in a Stuka. Consider that a fighter?

 

Milo says:
Even using your warped logic, your statement, "The USAAF made more fighter aircraft in few months than Germans did the entire war" is still BS. It took 4 years of P-51 production to equal Fw190 so called 'fighter' production. So ~48 months(4x12) is only a 'few months'? Do you even remember what you wrote?

Crumpp says:
And is not a valid comparison for FIGHTER production figures. Additionally those numbers include, as you pointed out, airframes manufactured for other axis aligned nations and a few neutral countries. If we want to compare that then we need to include all the Allied nations fighter forces arrayed against the Luftwaffe as well.

We are not talking about just the P51.  So your argument is that the Luftwaffe had a close to numerical parity with the allies?

OBW, I had a cousin check out that 190S. Yes there is a MW50 decal on it but was told that the a/c did not carry or have installed MW50, ever, as there was no room for it.  

That is what I thought.  Museums make mistakes.  Saw the MW 50 sticker and went WTF?

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp

That is what I thought.  Museums make mistakes.  Saw the MW 50 sticker and went WTF?

Crumpp

You were rather insistant that MW50 was installed in the a/c.

[Crumpp]

You were rather insistant that MW50 was installed in the a/c.

No, Milo.  I was insistant it had a MW 50 warning triangle  on it.

Milo says:
Anyone can put a false decal, and this one is truly false, on the a/c. This type of error has been seen on many a/c to give them more 'glitz'.

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Crump says:
As much as you would like to think so, I don't think you’re the only one who has come to this conclusion. Museum curators have caused quite a few historical errors. That is why I asked Furball about this particular aircraft in the first place.

I really appreciate your posting some good but well-known information.

However it does nothing to confirm or deny the facts of either this A/C setup or MW-50 use in the S8. The only way to do that is visit the Museum and get from the archives the history of this Aircraft, its restoration, and display history. Until then we are only making assumptions.



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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134180

Your thinking and not reading again.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Lets not be obtuse.  The exception not the rule.


Me obtuse? Never said it was the rule. It was you saying they were never used as 'fighters'.
 

For just the P51 yes, it is a BS statement.  The comparison is between fighter aircraft not just the P51.  The USAAF had several different models of fighter remember?


  Yup they did. The US still did not build 50-60K 'fighter' type a/c in a few months.

They were attack aircraft.  Yes, Milo they were designed for the ground support role (FW-190F) or the long-range fast attack bomber role (FW-190G) NOT an Air Superiority Fighter role. Could they defend themselves IF NECESSARY from enemy fighters?  Sure they could.  Does not mean though they were designed or employed as fighters, NO.

Now who is being obtuse? They still were used as 'fighters' when required to. The Allies used their 'fighters' as pure GA a/c in pure GA units but you want to dismiss them.

 
Lambert is the only Sclachtflieiger pilot with a number of kills who did not serve in a JG.  

Remember Rudel got kills in a Stuka. Consider that a fighter?

I don't consider multi engined bombers as 'fighters' either but they shot down a/c as well.

 
We are not talking about just the P51.  So your argument is that the Luftwaffe had a close to numerical parity with the allies?

The P-51 was just an example. How do you see I am claiming that the LW had numerical parity? You sure read funny.  The US factories delivered 99,465 'fighter' a/c during the war. The US was at war for 42 months. Monthly average was 2368 a/c. It would have taken ~20 months to produce 50k a/c (to make you happy, 5k less 190s) the Germans did during the whole war. Sure is more than a few months which you claimed. You got caught shoveling and are now squirming to get out of it

[Crumpp]

Yup they did. The US still did not build 50-60K 'fighter' type a/c in a few months.

The US certainly built more than a couple of thousand fighter planes a month.  Looking at the operational strength of the Luftwaffe:

 

In Feb '44 the Luftwaffe had on hand between 1500 and 1600 fighters total.  The United states could produce those numbers in a month.

Milo says US Fighter Production:
Monthly average was 2368 a/c.

There you go!  See I knew you could see it.

Milo says:
They still were used as 'fighters' when required to.

Yes, to defend themselves!!  Big Difference from the picture you want to paint of them being fulltime additions to the JG's, Milo.

Milo says:
I don't consider multi engined bombers as 'fighters' either but they shot down a/c as well.

Ok, I can play this game.  My favourite color is red.  Interesting tid bit of information that has nothing to do with the conversation.

This is what I said:

The USAAF made more fighter aircraft in few months than Germans did the entire war.

It would have taken JUST the United States 6 months to equal 4 years of German FW-190A production.  In 18 months the United States could have equaled 6 years German fighter production.

Crumpp