Author Topic: P38 a super plane?  (Read 18773 times)

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6865
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #225 on: December 04, 2004, 05:00:46 PM »
From the 190S thread.

Crumpp, quote:

However, the pilots I have interviewed are very specific when it comes to MW-50. They had it and used it.

So you interview pilots of the 190S.

Yet dispite facts that it did not have MW50 installed, you insinuated that it had MW50 installed, since it had the decal. For such an expert on the 190, as yourself, you should have known that the decal was an error.

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #226 on: December 04, 2004, 05:06:10 PM »
Milo,

Your jumping to conclusions that just are not there.

 
Quote
However, the pilots I have interviewed are very specific when it comes to MW-50. They had it and used it.


Yes they did .  6 months ago I would have sworn, as is the popular line that they did not have MW50 on the FW-190A.  I now have solid documentation as well as pilot anecdotes to back that statement up.

Quote
So you interview pilots of the 190S.


Did I say that?? NO.  Another instance of your ***-U-ME 'ing = assuming.  Then you act like an idiot and jump for the throat.

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6865
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #227 on: December 04, 2004, 05:29:34 PM »
This is what you said Crumpp. Read very carefully.

The USAAF made more fighter aircraft in few months than Germans did the entire war.

In the 42 months the USA was at war they made just under 100,000 'fighter' a/c. So if the 20 months(Jan 44 to Aug 45) it took to equal German production for the whole war is a FEW MONTHS you are correct. I don't consider 20 months as a few months. Neither does Webster.

......

quote: Big Difference from the picture you want to paint of them being fulltime additions to the JG's, Milo.

No I am not trying to paint a picture of the F and Gs as full timers but you sure want to see that I am trying to.

........

The thread was about the 190S, so why did you bring in other non related crud.:rolleyes:

You got a professional writer lined up for that book? You will need one.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6147
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #228 on: December 04, 2004, 05:49:29 PM »
He'll need more help with research and comprehension than anything. And he'll have serious trouble making the non fiction rack.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #229 on: December 04, 2004, 06:49:56 PM »
Quote
The thread was about the 190S, so why did you bring in other non related crud.


Only in your mind, Milo.

To me the thread was about Furball showing me a cool FW-190 pic and letting me know he lived near the museum.  It just happenend to be one I knew had the MW 50 sticker on and wanted to CONFIRM it was a curator mistake.

You jumped in the middle with your cross to bear.

Standard Milo crap.

Right out of Websters, BTW:

{The few}, the minority; -- opposed to the many or the majority.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 04, 2004, 07:15:44 PM by Crumpp »

Offline BUG_EAF322

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3153
      • http://bug322.startje.com
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #230 on: December 04, 2004, 07:46:08 PM »
crumpp crap out.

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9517
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #231 on: December 04, 2004, 10:37:58 PM »
OK, this has all been very interesting for anyone who has read through it.

I'll bet we can all agree that, notwithstandin their success in other theaters, the P-38 groups in the 8th AF did not do well, compared to their P-47 brethren or the early 51 groups.  Regardless of paper performance, why do you think this was so?

- oldman

Offline leitwolf

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 656
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #232 on: December 04, 2004, 10:56:34 PM »
Because the P-38 is a piece of junk. It sucked so much that Lockheed was not allowed to produce a different fighter and was the only plane in production from the beginning to the end of the war.
See I learned a lot in this thread ;)

EDIT: Same goes for the 109. In production from the start to the very end. But we all know how crappy that plane is :D
« Last Edit: December 04, 2004, 11:00:05 PM by leitwolf »
veni, vidi, vulchi.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20387
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #233 on: December 04, 2004, 11:04:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
OK, this has all been very interesting for anyone who has read through it.

I'll bet we can all agree that, notwithstandin their success in other theaters, the P-38 groups in the 8th AF did not do well, compared to their P-47 brethren or the early 51 groups.  Regardless of paper performance, why do you think this was so?

- oldman


If you read Warren Bodie's stuff, he puts much of the blame on the Bomber COs of the 8th along with the Fighter CO of the time Monk Hunter.  The bomber guys wanted to prove they could go it alone.  The 1st FG and their 38s were some of the first USAAF fighters to reach England.  They were promptly shipped off to North Africa where along with the 14th and 82nd FGs they performed well and stayed in 38s in the drive through Sicily and up through Italy never giving up the Lightning.  They were in them at VE Day.  82nd and 1st Scored comparable kills to any of the 8th FGs in Air to Air combat.  

One wonders what they might have done in the escort role with the 8th bombers had they stayed in England as they could have gone the distance where the P47 that did arrive in England was not equipped to carry any drop tanks.  The P40 and P39 had this but not the Jug for some reason.

370th and 474th performed well in 38s with the 9th AF out of England and in France also.

Certainly, with the earlier model 38s there were mechanical issues as well as the heating issues, but they were not insurmountable.

Overall I'd say that the bombers go it alone doctrine didn't help.  The desire wasn't there initially to solve the problems the 8th had with the 38.   Looking at the scramble Cass Hough and company had to go through to get drop tanks for the Jugs, seems to speak loudly to this bomber's first motivation early on as well.

By the time Doolittle and company took over and made the fighters a priority, the Mustangs were on the way, The Jug was being modified with stronger wings and hard points to carry drop tanks as well as more internal fuel and the pipeline of replacement pilots, as mentioned by Widewing were single engine drivers.

I keep going back to the success of the first 38 groups fighting against the LW in the Med through the end of the war.  They swore by the 38 and did quite well with it.

Dan/Slack
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6865
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #234 on: December 05, 2004, 05:22:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp


Right out of Websters, BTW:

{The few}, the minority; -- opposed to the many or the majority.

Crumpp


From a better Websters than yours.

adjective
amounting to or consisting of a small number

noun
an indefinately small number of persons or things; not many

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #235 on: December 05, 2004, 06:55:07 AM »
Hi Oldman,

>I'll bet we can all agree that, notwithstandin their success in other theaters, the P-38 groups in the 8th AF did not do well, compared to their P-47 brethren or the early 51 groups.  Regardless of paper performance, why do you think this was so?

In my opinion, the main reason was the thick wing root and the resulting Mach-induced problems. Before the advent of the compressiblity flaps (which were no dive brakes), the P-38 not only had the lowest tactically useful Mach number of all the fighters in the ETO, but it was also severely limited when it came to high-speed turns and at high-altitude actually lost turning performance at any speed, compared to fighters with the then-standard NACA 5-digit profiles. As high operating altitudes were the order of the day in the ETO, these effects combined to make the P-38 a rather unmanoeuvrable ship.

Contrary to what has been claimed here, the P-38 was not very manoeuvrable in the rolling plane either. Fully established roll rate might have been good (with hydraulically powered ailerons at least, which weren't initially available in the ETO), but the P-38 had a lot of mass out of the centreline - engines and turbosuperchargers -, so roll acceleration suffered terribly compared to a single-engined fighter. I'm sure you're aware that Shaw's "Fighter Combat" rates roll accelleration as more important than roll rate - rolls have to be quick to change the plane of the maneouvre, and you hardly ever roll more than 180° anyway.

In my opinion, these were the two main factors that made the P-38 a failure in the ETO (with Mach effects clearly ranking number one). General Doolittle called the P-38 "a second-rate fighter", and if you only look at its high-altitude capabilities, this verdict seems fully justified.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline hogenbor

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 677
      • http://www.lookupinwonder.nl
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #236 on: December 05, 2004, 07:17:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
1000 kph and yes ur talkin crap again

in the first place their equipment was not suited to measure that.

I bet u have sex in lederhosen.


I had to look it up, I just had to.

Check http://www.lederhosen.de

:D :D :D

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #237 on: December 05, 2004, 09:02:42 AM »
Quote
Captain Verge says about throttle settings of the P38:
This is a setting you will not see in 99% of the published data because it was not in the manual, but it was used by the pilots in combat.


Quote
Crumpp replys:
I would not doubt it, Seriously. I am sure many a Luftwaffe pilot exceeded the limits of his Flugzeug-Handbuch. In fact, the FW-190 was routinely dove to speeds in excess of 1000kph. Pyro?? Can you get right on that for us? For that matter, RAF, VVS, IJNAF, or RCAF pilots, just pick your poison.


Bug replies with a tenuous grasp of the situation:

Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322:
1000 kph and yes ur talkin crap again




Does anybody expect Pyro to rush out and change the dive speeds?  Figure the odds....

On the Performance of the P38 vs. Luftwaffe fighters.  Lets check out the FW-190A vs P38F.



Well, That's not applicable say the P38 fans!  The P38 L is a different plane.  Yes it is, and so are the later versions of the FW-190A.  They gained a large chunk of horsepower over the FW-190A3.  The RAE says 150hp.  It's a lot more than that.



And let's look at Faber's FW-190A3, WNr 313 performance on a "derated" motor using avaition gasoline the engine was not designed to burn.  This aircraft is the one used for both the P38 performance trials and the above document:



No lets look at what a properly serviced "rated" FW-190A3 can do:



BIG Difference getting that lost horsepower back!  So when you factor in the design improvements on both aircraft it is easy to see why the P38 was dropped from the 8th AF roles.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 05, 2004, 12:15:21 PM by Crumpp »

Offline BUG_EAF322

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3153
      • http://bug322.startje.com
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #238 on: December 05, 2004, 11:08:11 AM »
Whatever biased lederhosen  luftwhiner punk

oh and i never whined a thing about the p38

search for it

i just kill fw 190 with it where ever i can find them

ur precence on this board is like an annoying boy/kid who wants the last word

get lost and go play with ur lederhosen

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
P38 a super plane?
« Reply #239 on: December 05, 2004, 01:53:01 PM »
Late war P38's in the ETO had powered ailerons and excellent rate of roll for your info.
The LW also became aware of that, for they captured one!
One LW pilot described it as such: "you could fly the plane with one finger"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)