Author Topic: gameplay idea for those who fight..  (Read 4775 times)

Offline AWMac

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #120 on: December 03, 2004, 12:15:57 PM »
"All your bases are belong to us!"

:D

Offline beet1e

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #121 on: December 03, 2004, 12:18:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furious
Are you saying that some folks having fun is futile?  Aren't we supposed to be having fun?
Furious,

As I said, this was my personal point of view of furballing. Anyone is free to agree or disagree. I'm saying that I would find it to be an exercise in futility. It did not hold my interest and I would get bored very quickly.  YMMV.

However, combat to capture/defend a base, or to defend a CV against attack is more interesting, in my view, because there is a purpose, an objective.

Offline mars01

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #122 on: December 03, 2004, 01:29:03 PM »
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Erm... it wasn't designed to demonstrate my knowledge (or lack of) furballing, but to illustrate my view of the futility of furballing.
Well that fact that you don't think there is more to it than moving chess pieces around and that you can't find any purpose in it, tells me that you are missing something designed to or not.


Quote
However, combat to capture/defend a base, or to defend a CV against attack is more interesting, in my view, because there is a purpose, an objective.
So honing your fighter skills is not a purpose that holds your interests?  Trying to perfect and learn better wingman tactics against unsurmountable odds is not interesting?  Honing your SA so you can combat unsurmountable odds is not interesting?  

Maybe the difference after all this time between us beet is that I want to become better at fighter tactics and plane handling and you want to play chess.:D

Furballing has alot to it and is by no means easy to get good at.  There are alot of things you have to do well before you can even survive in a real furball.  Unlike dropping bombs or base capture, which you only have to get good at a small set of things.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2004, 01:34:31 PM by mars01 »

Offline AWMac

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #123 on: December 03, 2004, 01:44:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
what a frikn waste of typing..why do you gusy type so much..lolol

Cause ... unlike you ... we CAN type ... :D

Tell Mr. "Silky Smooth" Urbacus to get his arse back in here ... I miss wingin' with him.



Ditto

I miss the UrbMeister also.  :(

Hiyas Slappy!  

:aok

Offline beet1e

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #124 on: December 03, 2004, 05:21:00 PM »
Mars01,

All the material being debated here is highly subjective. For example:
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Well that fact that you don't think there is more to it than moving chess pieces around and that you can't find any purpose in it, tells me that you are missing something designed to or not.
I accept that furballing interests you. And it's OK in (very) limited doses. But like I said, it did not hold my interest. I personally enjoy some sort of WW2 re-enactment. The RPS in WB was a good thing for me because it gave me the chance to fly a wider range of planes in a fair contest, instead of always having to deal with the same 3 planes the whole time. You tell me that I'm missing something, but in my view the furballers are missing about 70% of the whole game. In AH I flew fighters, bombers, jabo, PT boats, PNZR, FLAK, M8, delivered troops or supplies in both M3 and Goon, manned the FGs, SBs, drove the CV - all that stuff was put there by HTC. They intended for it to be used!. It was sad to see so many guys focus only on the air to air combat, and to turn their backs on the other 70% of the game. But, moving along...
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So honing your fighter skills is not a purpose that holds your interests? Trying to perfect and learn better wingman tactics against unsurmountable odds is not interesting? Honing your SA so you can combat unsurmountable odds is not interesting?
Did all that in WB, Mars. In 1999/2000, I had the enthusiasm that you have right now. I remember the time I found a plane I really liked - and got good in it - the F6F. I even whacked the #1 guy in it one time, even though he started in my 6 with an alt advantage. Another time, I had a P51 and Spit in my 6 at the same time, and managed to kill both! Yep, the enthusiasm was strong back then...
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Furballing has alot to it and is by no means easy to get good at. There are alot of things you have to do well before you can even survive in a real furball. Unlike dropping bombs or base capture, which you only have to get good at a small set of things.
Well, you have said how little I know about furballing; this quote tells me how little you know about base capture planning. I should qualify that by saying that the whole base capture strategem is porked in AH because there are so many warning signs that give the game away if attempting a surreptitious attack on a base. There's the siren, the flashing map, "base under attack" etc... so the enemy knows you're coming, and the capture (especially on the small maps where conveyor belting is viable) comes down to a numbers contest. To aim a bomb in AH using the P38, I liked to start at about 4K AGL. Not much chance of succeeding if, by the time you get there, the LA7s are waiting - at 10K.

But I think you're starting to sound like Lazs & Toad in taking the black or white view that one is either a toolshed killer or an air to air fite guy, because there are shades of grey in between. I was in a succession of jabo squads in WB, and I was good at it. Did this mean that I sucked at air to air combat? I don't think so. At the end of one tour about 5 years ago, I finished in 8th place in the fighter rankings - even though my squad was a dedicated jabo squad - we never bothered with furballing. The biggest hazards in jabo were being acked, cherrypicked, or being blown up by your own bomb - lol.

As for wingman tactics, I learned a lot from my moonlight squad, the Scanian Griffins. They had an excellent CO (-rudu-) and his wingman (-sach- - a guy from Susanville,CA) was the best wingman in the game. Yep, those were good times. We used to fly 190s.

Anyway, WB went off the boil for reasons that have already been discussed, so I came here. I do believe that AH is a more furballcentric sim than WB was, although WB did have some - ask Lazs. BTW I used to hook up with Lazs and a bunch of others - all the way back in 1998!

Now I know that you enjoy your small maps and your furballs. And I'm not trying to change your point of view. But for me, I just need something more out of a game besides chasing down Spits and LA7s every day. And I'm not interested in becoming a SpitV wonderpilot - not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it's just not for me.

Unfortunately, although AH2 has delivered better FMs, gunnery, and a few more planes, the gameplay remains lamentable. And I can't see that changing until we get TOD, so...

Toodle-Pip

Offline mars01

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #125 on: December 03, 2004, 06:42:39 PM »
Well beet your skills peaked and you got bored flying fighters in a fighter sim, sounds like you did the right thing in quiting.  

Just because you lost the spirit and the drive doesn't mean the rest of us are wrong or should stop too.  Although comments like the one below lead me to think you believe we are.

"Well, I'm bored. I think I'll get out my chess set. I'll leave the Kings in the box, and just move the other pieces around on the board for a couple of hours. Tum-te-tum... "


As long as there are other people at the other end of the controls willing to fight I will always enjoy fighting them.  It's when I can't fight them due to the map, thier timidness, strat model, or whatever that I get frustrated.  Nothing worse getting a few spare moments to fly and not being able to find decent fights only to log in disgust and want for a better game.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #126 on: December 04, 2004, 09:33:17 AM »
yep mars... I guess you could look at it like this... if there were no killshoote then the "strat" for the furballers would be that the furballers at a good fight would shoot down their own fluffs and suicide jabos.

Each side could kill their own people who came to ruin the fite.  

There would be no difference in skill level or complexity of "strat" in doing this or in suicide bombing a cv or FH's out in the middle of no where.  in fact... it would make more sense... you would at least be attempting to accomplish something besides ruining some one elses fun.

Granted... the whole idea of the game is winners and losers but then what is the point of killshooter?  if the idea of the game is to make everyone as misserable as possible then why have killshooter?

sure... some would abuse it and ruin legitimate strat but... so what?   it is a big map and the strat guys could just go and find another field to capture.  See what I mean?

lazs

Offline Urchin

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #127 on: December 04, 2004, 11:04:00 AM »
I like the idea, but here is why I think it'll never happen.  

It would lead to the absolute stagnation of what passes for "gameplay", and possibly fracture the "community"  Think about it.. there are really only two "camps" of people that play this game.  

There is the camp that plays this game to fight other people, be it "turn fighting" or "boom and zoom" or whatever.  Doesn't really matter what they fly, they are playing the game to shoot down other people.  

The other camp plays this game to reset the map.  There are subdivisions in this camp, you have the diehard ones that really enjoy battling buildings, and then you have the ones that tag along because they aren't much good at fighting and want to feel like they had some sort of impact.  The folks you see flying around in gigantic herds going to undefended bases belong in this camp.  

There really aren't to many people that play this game solely with the object of taking bases.  The vast majority of the herd is made up of people that dont really know how to fight, don't really want to learn, but still want to "win" occasionally.  Taking undefended field after undefended field won't do much for these people, they want to enjoy the "thrill of the kill" every so often, even if they have to compete with 15 other guys to kill the one vulchee that keeps upping.  

So who needs who more?  The people that want to kill other people or the people that play to reset the map?  In my opinion, the two groups don't really need each other at all.  However, that gigantic herd of newbs (for lack of a better word) that make up the vast majority of the "base takers" (as opposed to the folks who will try to take a base with 5-6 guys, those are my "dedicated" guys), need the 1st group a lot more than the 1st group needs them.

Most people who want to kill other people log in, look for a fight (preferably somewhat even, maybe a red bar that is slightly larger than a green bar), and then settle for practically anything.  If this means flying into a horde of lemmings intent on "taking a base" (read: landing 2 kills) then that is what they'll do.  

So, what would happen if there was a place in the MA that was built just for the 1st group?  

Well, in my opinion, the people who like to fight would probably fly pretty much exclusively there.  The reason is simple, they would simply have more fun there.  So where would that leave the rest of the arena?  

Numbers-wise there probably wouldn't be much of an effect.  You might have 30 people out of 500 or so that would choose to fly in the "fighter-town".  

The real effect, in my opinion, would be on the horde.  There wouldn't BE a bored person upping over and over to die at the hands of 10 or 15 people desperate to get one kill this sortie.  And once those people aren't getting any kills (thus recognition from their peers), they'd get bored and stop playing.  That group makes up ~90% of the MA.  If they start getting bored and stop playing, HTC stands to lose a lot of money.  So, there will never be a fighter town, at least not until this game really starts in on the end of its life cycle.

Offline SlapShot

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #128 on: December 04, 2004, 12:10:17 PM »
The real effect, in my opinion, would be on the horde. There wouldn't BE a bored person upping over and over to die at the hands of 10 or 15 people desperate to get one kill this sortie. And once those people aren't getting any kills (thus recognition from their peers), they'd get bored and stop playing. That group makes up ~90% of the MA. If they start getting bored and stop playing, HTC stands to lose a lot of money. So, there will never be a fighter town, at least not until this game really starts in on the end of its life cycle.

Urchin ... I followed you all the way to here.

Are you saying that the "bored person" is the furballer and for a lack of anything better to do, they try to up at a vulched or semi-vulched field ?
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Urchin

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #129 on: December 04, 2004, 12:25:46 PM »
Yes.

Offline nopoop

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #130 on: December 04, 2004, 01:06:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Are you saying that the "bored person" is the furballer and for a lack of anything better to do, they try to up at a vulched or semi-vulched field ?


I'll spin that Slap. For myself, if "I REALLY feel like flying" and there isn't squat on the map as far as real fight. Instead of logging which I usually do, I'll out of a base being attacked or fly towards a lopsided dar bar knowing it's futile just to get some action.

Sometimes I surprise myself.

On a whole, I agree with Urchin's take.
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight..

Offline SlapShot

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #131 on: December 04, 2004, 09:50:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by nopoop
I'll spin that Slap. For myself, if "I REALLY feel like flying" and there isn't squat on the map as far as real fight. Instead of logging which I usually do, I'll out of a base being attacked or fly towards a lopsided dar bar knowing it's futile just to get some action.

Sometimes I surprise myself.

On a whole, I agree with Urchin's take.


Don't get me wrong bud ... I just wanted to make sure I understood Urchin.

I make a living out of doing what he described ... when there are no squaddies on.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Midnight

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2004, 09:28:09 PM »
I'm not going to agree on getting a fighter town area on MA maps, but I do understand the frustrations.

There was a good fight going on equinox A17-A18. I think there was about 5 or 6 rook and bish having a fight just off the coast of the bish field. A few more rooks showed up and the fight moved closer to the field. A few rooks started vultching, even with AA still up. More rooks showed and then someone thought it a good idea to kill all the FHs while the town was still up.

OK. I figure I'll go East to A19 and fight the Bish as they come to defend A18. I go all the way to 19, kill a few more bish. All the while, there is a HORDE of rooks at A18, so I figure it's got to be captured soon, I can hang at A19 a while longer and won't need the gas to go all the way back to A17. Well, 10 minutes later, A18 is still not captured but a HORDE is still there vultching bombers trying to takeoff (dweeb defense)

Anyway, I end up having to fly all the way back to A17 on cruise power and A18 still wasn't captured.

Frustrating.... that's all. Would have been better if the fight stayed the way it was before the horde showed up.

Offline ccvi

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gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #133 on: December 09, 2004, 05:19:23 PM »
It's easier than adding unsinkable carriers or uncapturable fields.

Just make one spawn from each field closest to HQ spawn near eachother right in the air in an area somewhere out in the nowhere.

Offline jododger

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Re: gameplay idea for those who fight..
« Reply #134 on: September 18, 2009, 03:21:54 PM »
LOOK AT SOME OFTHE NAMES IN THIS POST

This (the new DA) has been a good idea for a long time, lets make it the best we can.

The lake is a great place to fly while you wait for a 1v1 or group duel.
The biggest problem with the lake is the imbalance in numbers(squads).  

FIXES:
- More people fly the low number country (especially the vets)
- have even more lakes - MAN LAKE (everyone for themself)
                                - REAL MAN LAKE (no perk rides)
                                - LONNER LAKE  (1v1 any can join)
                                - BETTY LAKE  (Typh only)

- Cap the lake so the sides stay close

The DA gets a constant flow of people that leave the TA too soon, so if we can teach them better game play we should in turn get better game play.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 03:25:57 PM by jododger »
Dodger
It's about the fight.