Author Topic: Learning to fly  (Read 8104 times)

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2004, 06:46:35 AM »
Enjoy the flying Chairboy. Have you noticed though already that flying is almost as controversial as politics at least amongst us crazy pilots.  People spinning insults at each other:aok .  The other thing about becoming a pilots is the fact that once another pilot is around there is nothing else to talk about except flying.  Very boring for normal people.

On the spinning controversy  I with a friend did multiple spins in a C150 from 11 or 12k down to about 4k one of which went inverted.  Great fun and a tribute to the 150 in that it did nothing dangerous or even attempt to flatten out.  A good solid trainer.  I have spun a 172 but it feels like cruelty to dumb animals as you really have to force it.

Offline Purzel

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« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2004, 07:12:01 AM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Of course, being really interested in the subject is probaby helping my enthusiasm.


Coll, eh? I mean, youre interested in planes (you play AH...) and you made the step to your local airport to take flying lessons. Remember what you always thought earlier, when you saw other ppl flying? Something like "Nah, its too expensive" or "I would but I dont have the time right now" and stuff. Now, would you stop taking lessons if they became a bit more expensive?

I thought so. What does that mean? YOURE SOLD, BUD! ;)

I remeber someone posting on this bbs about taking a few flying lessons just until he goes solo. I cannot image anyone having the self doscipline to just stop flying when he just goes solo.

I'm just done for half a year with my PPL, so I dont have the experience many ppl here have. But I can vivdly remember much stuff when I learned to fly, how exciting it all was.

Its really cool, stick to it, it will even get better.

Good luck!

Offline mars01

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« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2004, 10:38:33 AM »
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I've spun 150s, 152s, and 172s. All of them require rudder kick to even get into the spin, and you have to hold rudder to maintain it. And I never found the stall on my 172 to be abrupt--just the opposite. It yells at you for a while, then breaks nose down about 20 degrees. Ho-hum.
A 152 does not require a rudder kick to get it into a spin.  It requires a complete stall, no right rudder and some aileron.  How do I know this?  Before my first lesson any experience I had was thanks to MSFS going back to the beginning.  If any of you flew it you would know that the stalls, even now to some degree are not modeled too well so I had gotten used to using ailerons rather than rudder.  So naturally my first stalls incorporated the first parts of a spin as I would level the wings with aileron rather than rudder.  Once you get used to holding right rudder it seems like you have to use opposite rudder to get into the spin, but that is only because you are trained and naturally holding a little right rudder.  So try this next time you are doing stalls in a 152 - get it to stall, do not apply any rudder and level the wings with aileron.

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Low wing vs. High wing pilots are just like Chevy vs. Ford drivers. Everybody thinks the other guy's plane is junk. The truth is that they're all good, and all safe, if flown by an alert pilot within the aircraft's envelope. Get outside the envelope, and you're a test pilot without a chute.
That is a ridiculous statement.  I have not once met anyone that was a low wing or high wing pilot like I have met Chevy and Ford people.  Nor are any of my remarks tied to some stupid need to promote one or the other.  Personally a plane is a plane and they all have their own characteristics to watch out for.  Again if you were reading with your eyes open you would note that nowhere in this thread has anyone said any of the aforementioned planes were dangerous.  What was mentioned and is correct is the fact that a Warrior barley stalls let alone spins, where as a 152 will spin if you do not hold right rudder and user any aileron.  If you don't believe this go and try it for yourself, then you will understand.

Offline eagl

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« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2004, 01:53:21 PM »
Mars,

What you're describing is more of a "tip stall", where you are stalling the wingtip before the wing root due to the depressed aileron increasing the angle of attack of the outer few feet of the wing beyond the critical angle of attack.  It results in a rapid roll-off away from the roll control input.  Due to the inherent stability of the cessna designs if you start it from medium to high altitude, it will at worst progress into a high speed spiral dive.  At low altitude, the pilot in this situation finds himself inverted and about 30 degrees nose low, at which time he typically pulls the stick full aft and attempts to roll back the other way, which aggravates the problem and the plane "spins" into the ground.  It's more of a snap-roll however, since the total energy of the aircraft remains higher than that required to stabilize a spin.  The adverse yaw of the aileron that is drooping also aggravates the situation.  Simply releasing back stick pressure and centering the roll input will immediately resolve the situation although some residual roll inertia may cause the roll rate to coast to a stop instead of immediately halting.

I've induced spins in a T-37 by doing this, but it takes patience.  You can get the tipstall to occur but it takes a persistent misapplication of the controls for it to get into an actual stabilized spin.  The FAA was all excited about this final turn stall-spin scenario you describe while I was undergoing my initial flying training in 152s and 172s, and the upshot is that it only happens if you horse the controls around, and if you try it from altitude you'll probably overspeed everything instead of entering a conventional spin.  Simply releasing the controls will cause the rotation to stop leaving the plane flying just fine in whatever attitude and bank angle it was at when you released the controls.

Search AOPA pilot magazines from the 1986-1990 timeframe and you'll probably find a wealth of information on this including complete aerodynamic analysis.  It was just after this period of investigating this scenario that microsoft added the tipstall characteristic to their flight modelling of all aircraft.  I know, because at the time I was putting over 80 hours a month into flying various MSFS versions and I was excited to see MSFS model such an aerodynamically interesting portion of the flight model.

It's an aero quirk that AH never seemed to quite capture, but flight modelling in any game/sim will never be perfect so it's just not that big of a deal in our game.

FWIW, the F-15E also does this if the controls are misapplied.  With a high AOA on the aircraft from full aft stick, if the control stick is rapidly pushed to neutral and then shoved to the side before the nose has a chance to drop, the plane will usually rapidly roll in the opposite direction of the control input, combined with a yawing nose slice in the direction of the roll.  It's a classic tip-stall scenario and almost any conventional aircraft will do it, not just high wing designs.
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Offline Golfer

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« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2004, 02:03:06 PM »
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Straiga - it seems you have some worthwhile input to this thread, but cannot add it without ranting at people.


I'm gonna get ya for this one, beet.

Straiga knows his stuff.  He's got a bag full of experience and I'm still dishing out of my bag of luck.  He is a guy that I'd go to for an answer, is very personable and always willing to help out.  That gets lost sometimes over the internet when emotion, and true sense of what they're saying can be lost.

For what it's worth, you've see 'The Right Stuff' I am sure.  Between pudknocker and prime pilot, I don't even have the prerequesites for being a pudknocker.

Offline mars01

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« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2004, 02:20:34 PM »
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What you're describing is more of a "tip stall", where you are stalling the wingtip before the wing root due to the depressed aileron increasing the angle of attack of the outer few feet of the wing beyond the critical angle of attack. It results in a rapid roll-off away from the roll control input.
Eagl good explanation and you are correct except for your conclusion.  What you are describing is what causes the spin. 1 wing stalls and as that happens the other wing starts to fly and hence you go into a spin.

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Due to the inherent stability of the cessna designs if you start it from medium to high altitude, it will at worst progress into a high speed spiral dive.
This does not happen because you are in a stalled condition.  It would only happen if you did not stall the aircraft first.

Offline mars01

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« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2004, 03:03:24 PM »
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The Duchess is a light twin and I find it has a tendency to have a slight (very mild) but unexplained fishtail to it. Even in fairly smooth air I found that it would sway from side to side, but not enough to be uncomfortable to me or passengers.
I know the V35s fishtail because of the length of the fueslage, perhaps it is the same with the Duchess?

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2004, 03:12:17 PM »
Golfer - knowing one's stuff is less than 50% of the equation. What's the use of that if you cannot impart that knowledge without a rant?  Sorry, but my judgement still stands. He may know his stuff, but he's not the only one who knows his stuff. I'd pick one of the others who knows his/her stuff.
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Originally posted by Golfer
For what it's worth, you've see 'The Right Stuff' I am sure.  
Yes, and I've also watched a BBC production called "The Wrong Stuff". This was a programme which examined disasters, often where experienced pilots had been involved. In each case, the Achilles Heel tended to be "Attitude" - and I'm not talking about the nose angle of the planes they were flying.

Offline eagl

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« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2004, 03:12:48 PM »
The thing is, you're not completely stalled.  The design of the cessna wing causes the wing root to stall first, and if no aileron input is introduced, in the normal CG range there is not enough elevator authority to cause the entire wing to stall.  The stall progresses from the wing root out to maybe 2/3 of the wingspan.  Short of using a very nose high stall entry or some other way of forcing a higher angle of attack (aft CG for example), you simply can't force the entire wing to stall using elevator only.  This results in the very straightforward stall characteristics of the cessna high wing aircraft.

Adding ailerons only may cause that outboard portion of the wing to stall despite the lack of elevator authority, because the drooped aileron increases the angle of attack.  However when this occurs it's not really a true spin because the roll rate accompaning the yaw rate will force the nose down, typically causing the speed to increase.  If the controls are held in the entry condition, it should degenerate into a spiral dive, not an upright spin.  The problem for most pilots is that the initial departure is sudden, probably unexpected since only a noob or poorly trained pilot would force the plane into such a position, and also probably low to the ground since the landing phase and final turn are typically where you find someone flying slow, pulling too hard on the controls, then trying to roll out of the turn with the plane in the stall.

That's why the control inputs for a departure recovery are "max relax roll", not "roll, relax, max".  As in Max power, Relax the back control pressure, and Roll wings level.  If you do it out of order, you're just begging for a snap roll, spin entry, or tipstall.

It's a shame a bunch of guys had to pack it in before the deadly "final turn spin" myth was debunked along with the "downwind turn" myth.  The downwind turn is only hazardous if you are flying only by reference to the ground and completely ignore airspeed and what the plane is telling you, and the cessna "final turn spin" is only hazardous if you pull the plane into a stall while turning, then try to aggressively roll the wings level before relaxing the aft yoke pressure.  It's just basic aerodynamics, but lots of pilots really never get more than a rudimentary grasp of the forces involved in keeping a plane airborn and pointing in the right direction.

BTW you can get many planes to tipstall even without the plane being "stalled", just like you can get a plane to stall well above it's designed level flight stall airspeed.  It's all about angle of attack, and it's why snap rolls are so violent.  The difference in angle of attack between the left and right wings is large in a snap roll, and that's pretty much what's happening with a tipstall except the area of concern is typically the wingtip or outer portion of the wing where the ailerons are.

That's one reason why some planes use spoilers for roll control.  Control reversal due to wing warping at high speed is another, but that's a completely different thread :)
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Offline mars01

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« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2004, 03:33:03 PM »
eagl, do you agree with the following...

In the 152 defiantely and most aircraft, if no rudder is added during the stall the left wing will droop, if you crank in right aileron to lift the left wing, the adverse yaw will further slow the lefft wing down more than the right wing thus sending you into a spin.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2004, 07:28:27 PM »
I flew again today, and it was great!  I took off on my own, flew out over the ocean, then turned to Simi Valley.  Once we got there, I did some slow flying (60 knots), then he had me put on a hood so I couldn't see out the window and had me do turns using the instruments alone.  Very cool, kinda disorienting at first, but he says that I'm doing really good with the instruments and thinks it might be because I've spent so much time on simulators.  

I did the whole approach pattern on my own (with him running the radio, of course) and then landed it.  We're going through the material really quickly, and he's quizing me a lot so I know I'm picking it up.

One habit I definately need to switch is the concept of using throttle to control altitude and elevator to control speed.  Seems backwards, but with his explanation, I can understand why, just a hard habit to break.

Weather permitting, I'm doing another lesson tomorrow at 9AM.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2004, 08:52:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
One habit I definately need to switch is the concept of using throttle to control altitude and elevator to control speed.  Seems backwards, but with his explanation, I can understand why, just a hard habit to break.
Yes, indeed. ;) Glad you've learned this early. I bet the flightsim gamey types would have real trouble with this. :lol

Just wait till you fly a plane with constant speed prop - you'll never want to go back...

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2004, 09:41:01 PM »
Chairboy, I think what you are doing is great! Best of luck to you.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2004, 01:35:24 PM »
Thanks!  It's a lot of fun, and flying every day is really helping me get the skills down.  Today we did steep turns, more slow flight, and more instrument time under the hood.  There's sure a lot of things to track, I find myself having a hard time breaking my eyes away from the horizon during take off roll to check the instruments, but I'm sure I'll get better as I get more time in the cockpit.

Got quite a nice compliment today, he said that I'm a 4 hour pilot flying like a 14 hour pilot.  I mentioned that during landing, I felt more like a 40 minute pilot, but again, practice will probably help out quite a bit.

I just ordered version 8 of X-Plane.  It's on sale for $50 right now, and I think I'll practice my checklists (preflights, startups, take off, descent, etc) while I'm up in Oregon for the X-Mas break.
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Offline jigsaw

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« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2004, 04:40:21 PM »
Landings are tough to grasp at first, but before long you'll be doing Zen Landings where it's second nature.

If you're having trouble not looking at the instruments, see if your instructor has something like this cover up (http://www.imfi.net/resources.php).
The little suction cups are great for learning power management on short final. You can get them at pretty much any office supply store.