Community Question - Snap Roll Gamey or Basic ACM

[mars01]

rgr Oct, I'll will be on tonight, around 7-8 EST,  I'll look for you.  I would also like to do some tests aswell and another pair of eyes would be cool.  So if we dont run into each other I'll keep my eyes out for you.

[Wotan]

There's a possibility that the only reason such a maneuver works in AH is because from the fe of the attacker it appears as a 'warp roll'.

It could be an example of an inadvertant exploitation of the net code.

I liked to see the film from the FE of the attacker...

But as to whether its gamey or not who cares. There far worse things then this.

[mars01]

There's a possibility that the only reason such a maneuver works in AH is because from the fe of the attacker it appears as a 'warp roll'.

Hey Wotan are you talking about the snap roll or as Jackal put it, aprapo, the land trout manuver?

[Kev367th]

Whats the one that causes the plane to appear to spin in all 3 axis without any forward movement.
Some players seem to have this off to a tee.
Seems to be prevalent to Lala's and P38s, although have seem it done in a Mossie and F4U.
If its intentional, yup its gamey as its exploiting a 'bug' or whatever in the code.

[mars01]

Whats the one that causes the plane to appear to spin in all 3 axis without any forward movement.

Too me it looks like a snap roll into a flat spin.

IMO a Lumchovok (spelling) almost the same thing, but I don't think they are intentionally doing Lumchovoks

[Shane]

Originally posted by Octavius
Hey mars, do you think you could make a film of the recognizable snap roll?  

these wild floppy maneuvers are initiated out of panic by the tard in my gunsight...  

ding... ding... ding...

we have a winner.

that's why i say it's a noob manuever, it's mostly panic.  or done dweebily, knowing the visual effect it'll have.

I get overshoots all the time. i've never had anyone tell me (but now i will for sure) that i flopped all over.

i have had the occasional wing dip stall as well as the snap roll, but never deliberately.

[Shane]

Originally posted by SlapShot
It seems that somewhere around 400-600 out on their six, they pull back on stick as hard as they can which induces something that probably has even been given a name in the aeronautical world ....

aka  "snaproll"

duh.

[mars01]

Ding Ding Ding

Have you ever seen a snap roll done in real life Shane?

It seems that somewhere around 400-600 out on their six, they pull back on stick as hard as they can which induces something that probably has even been given a name in the aeronautical world ....

The fact that you think that is a snap roll shows you can be good and not know anyhting.  I would think you could tell the difference between a snap roll and an induced flat spin.

BTW - I have plenty of films doing snap rolls.  I will find one but I have no where to host it.

Mars did one for me the other night and while it did look a little floppy on my FE, I could tell that it was snapping only on one axis (horizontal ?).

Also shane, if you are going to pull stuff out why didn't you pull the above one out.  Notice he said rotating on one axis, that would not be flopping all over that place as you describe.  Nice try tho lol.

[mars01]

A snap roll is similar to a horizontal spin. It is an autorotation with one wing stalled. Figure 3 shows the symbol for a regular snap roll, figure 4 for an outside snap. In the regular snap, the plane has to be stalled by applying positive g forces. In an outside snap, the plane is stalled by applying negative g. In both cases rudder is then used to start autorotation just like in a spin.

The above is a good explanation of a Snap roll found at http://www.skyjackmotorsports.com/IAC24/aresti.html

[Shane]

he said it "looked a little floppy"

the thing is what i saw, you weren't "rolling on one axis."


i know a what a snap roll looks like, and it doesn't take even 5 secs to perform one.

simply put you were fish flopping it, as seen on my FE, the only reason you even got a shot off on me when i "overshot" was i honestly thought you were going in, so i eased out of it and pulled ahead, then presto, you're just fine.

call it whatever you want, many in here recognize it for what it is, gamey, noobish, desperate, dweebish... take your pick.

as someone who's been around long enough, i find it amusing you'd need to resort to a tactic like that. as i said i get overshoots all the time and i don't have to "snap roll" to do it.

[Zaphod]

Mars

I was there when you and Shane got into the debate on channel 200.  In fact I asked exactly how to do a snap roll and both of you answered if you remember.  Shortly after that I found myself diving on a spit.  As I closed the spit appeared to flop on my FE two or three times then as I passed it leveled out.  I knew I was going to overshoot and had planned for it so no problem.  Turns out it was you Mars doing snap rolls.  While I'm not saying that you are purposely flopping, the end result on my FE was flopping.  I guess it's an internet lag thing that causes this.

 I have seen several focke wulfs do this since I returned to AH.  The most memorable ones flop around as soon as you get within 1k of their six.  I really can't say how they keep from stalling or spinning the plane.  They tend to benefit little from this move as it appears to be their only move (the guys who flop at 1k). It is usually pretty easy to stay a little over and behind until they crash or get tired of flopping around.  

In fact it is so bad that I wondered if the "dont move your controls so fast" thing had been disabled.  I checked and you can get that message.  I had always assumed that those folks were pretty new and just kind of freaking out.  I never really knew that it was snap rolls.  The most irritating thing about all of this is that they don't seem to lose that much speed.  It would seem to me that if your plane is flying every which way then drag would tend to slow you down quite a bit.

By the way once you and Shane told me how to snap roll I realized that I too have done this but its always been accidental as it's a departure from controlled flight for me.  I don't really know how to recover quickly from it and frequently wind up in a flat spin.  It normally happens when I am trying to pull up and onto an enemy plane's six (lag pursuit to lead pursuit for a shot).  It has also happened when attempting a reversal if I am a bit slow and not paying attention to what I am doing.  I can usually feel it coming on now and can normally avoid it altogether by easing off the stick slightly.  The thing is that while snapping the plane has definately spoiled a shot that someone attempted on me, it has almost always resulted in my eventual death.  The recovery makes me lose angles on the nme plane and usually leaves me with much lower e relative to the nme.
 
When I do the reversal thing I try to maintain controlled flight throughout (ease off throttle, easy turn, chop throttle and extend flaps if necessary with barrel roll opposite of the initial turn).  This allows me to maintain a predictable flight path for a snap shot on the overshoot or to maintain position on the six of the overshooting nme if he is too slow to get away.

I'm not saying a snap roll is or is not valid in general.  It's just not a useful thing for me since it normally results in a stall/spin for me.  Certainly if it causes a flopping effect then it's gamey but maybe that's not true for all players.

Zaphod

[mars01]

he said it "looked a little floppy"

the thing is what i saw, you weren't "rolling on one axis."


i know a what a snap roll looks like, and it doesn't take even 5 secs to perform one.

simply put you were fish flopping it, as seen on my FE, the only reason you even got a shot off on me when i "overshot" was i honestly thought you were going in, so i eased out of it and pulled ahead, then presto, you're just fine.

call it whatever you want, many in here recognize it for what it is, gamey, noobish, desperate, dweebish... take your pick.

as someone who's been around long enough, i find it amusing you'd need to resort to a tactic like that. as i said i get overshoots all the time and i don't have to "snap roll" to do it.

Shane you contradict yourself even in your own responses.

First you say, "On my front end it looked floppy."  Fine then I would have to accept that there was some internet lag or something.  But then in the same breath you say that a snap roll is "gamey, noobish, desperate, dweebish".

So what was it flopping around of a gamey noobish move?

As for the 5 seconds, that was regarding the whole interaction after our third scisors.  From the time you pulled the trigger to the time you shot past me.

Hmmm many recognize this as "gamey, noobish, desperate, dweebish" boy you see only whay you want to.  So far no one that has replied has said this.

Yeah, my only move is a snap roll that is the only move I have.  LOLH.

A snap roll is just another tool in the arsenal, to be pulled out at the right time.  The fact that you can't see this doesn't suprise me at all.

[mars01]

Hey Zap,

Funny thing there is, I don't snap roll in a spit because it doesn't do them well so I'm not sure what moves you are refering to.  I may have the film of that one, I will take a look.

Actually I remember the encounter, you were diving in from my high six in a P47.  That was a scissors not a snap roll.  I'm not sure how you could even see if I was flopping since you were blowing past so fast.

That is the funny thing, I think alot of people mistake flying edge to edge as flopping around, when in fact there is a big difference.  People that are aimlessly, skilllessly flopping around like the fish aren't flying, in most case my plane is under control and flying.

departure from controlled flight for me.

That is because it is an accellerated stall.

[Shane]

try and convince yourself all you want, you're not convincing me.

you're merely taking advantage of the fact that the netcode can't deal with the sudden axis changes and displays them weirdly, floppily if you will.

zaph, the difference between this and stick stirring is that stick stirring means you're actually trying to yank your stick all over the place, while for a snap roll all you do is hold the stick back and let the FM/net code do the flopping for you.

what most people refer to as stick stirring these days *is* in fact a "well-executed" "snap roll," aka floppy fish manuever.

as a matter of fact i did it deliberately during my exchange with mars when dmdrodan was on my 6 in a tiff.  i can honestly say it took no skill whatsoever to perform. and i highly doubt the FM accurately reflects what a series of extended snaprolls would actually result in, hell, i bet it's even more kick-*** if you also have the stall limiter on (which i bet mars does )

[mars01]

Shane I could care less to convince you.  I don't fly for you I fly for me.

Your the one that has a problem with it not me.  As far as weather or not you think I'm a dweeb, I could care less dude.

I learned a long time ago not to put alot of weight in what a poor sport and soar loser thinks, no matter how much talent they may have.