Author Topic: Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?  (Read 4270 times)

Offline Halo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3222
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« on: December 20, 2004, 10:38:22 AM »
After reading about the massive Airbus 380 and all its superlatives (e.g., 261-foot wingspan, 50 feet longer than any other aircraft currently flying), have to wonder whether it will become a true airline asset like the Boeing 747 or another niche extravagance like the Concorde.  

The heavily subsidized Concorde was envisioned as at least a 100-aircraft fleet but wound up with only 14 regularly flying over only a few routes.  The U.S. and Soviet Union  concluded supersonic airliners would not justify their cost and chose not to produce any.

So far 139 A380s have been sold, mostly to government-backed airlines like Emirates in Dubai.  While the huge double decker offers more room for first class plassengers, coach passengers supposely get only another inch of seat width and no extra leg room.

Airbus says it needs to sell 250 A380s to break even while analyst Frost and Sullivan says that because of discounting the figure is more like 325.  Passenger capacity could vary, but might be around 500.  

Assembled in France from major parts coming from Germany, England, and Spain, the A380 requires a transporation network that includes tight squeezes through canals and narrow streets, including a three-day, mile-long truck convoy along 155 miles of small country roads, "traveling only at night and a maximum speed of 20 miles an hour."  

Will be a fascinating story to watch.  Singapore Airlines, with its 18-hour daily flights, will be first to fly the A380, reports the Washington Post, and half the A380 sales are expected to go to developing nations in Asia.

The two-page feature is in the Washington Post, Dec. 19, 2004, Page A23.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty. (Anne Herbert, 1982, Sausalito, CA)
Paramedic to Perkaholics Anonymous

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2004, 11:05:50 AM »
Concorde flopped because of the huge expenses it had compared to the carry capacity.
Drinks jet-fuel like a drunk, has very little cargo space and doesn't carry enough passengers for all that.

I can't think of any other realistic downfalls for the A380, than the current turbulence at the air industry (are the airliners ready to invest that much?) and its huge size, which will limit the airports it can operate from. (will the restrictions make it more profitable to invest in a smaller aicraft, which will be more flexible?)

Offline Otto

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1566
      • http://www.cris.com/~ziggy2/
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2004, 11:52:02 AM »
Seat cost per mile.  Nothing else matters.  If it's low, it will sell.  If it's not, it wouldn't.

Offline Dinger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1705
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2004, 11:54:04 AM »
seat cost per mile isn't the only factor any more.

A) engines currently are fairly conservative on that thing; they designed it for later versions to "Fit in" more powerful engines.  That in turn will allow them to use more of that deck space. Read 800 pax cattle cars.


B) 4 engines and running that close to the limits means that it will be slow to climb; that's gonna mean tacking an extra half-hour or more on long haul flights, which does have an economic impact on operational costs. I'll eat my hat if that thing climbs fully loaded faster than the curvature of the earth.

C) Large capacity may mean fitting more people in a landing slot at crowded airports, and that's supposed to be the market (hence not just seat cost, but how many seats). But do a mental note of the flights you've made in the past five years -- how many of them would be "A-380 Territory"?

D) An already complicated system has further strains added by political concerns that decentralize every aspect of the aircraft's design, construction and assembly. Even worse, there are politicians who see this project as a European Statement. You'd hope that Europeans, as backwards as they are, could take a couple lessons from the past: the soviet missile program, the Concorde and Tupolev, that whole "Schoolteacher in Space" thing. Let business determine what's good business.

E) Load factors. What kind of load factor does that thing need to break even?

So basically, we get the A-380, a whale of an aircraft marginally bigger than a 747-400 (which can cram up to 568 pax, by the way, but not conceivably on long hauls), but with considerably worse performance, as-yet undetermined operating costs, and some interesting problems with passenger handling: even if they upgrade the physical aspects of the airports in time, there's still the baggage handling and boarding time/space. When the A-380 comes out with the 800-passenger version, is it going to be popular with ground crews and passengers? do you mind boarding your 14-hour flight 1.5 hours early, then waiting another hour at the other end for your bags?


It could do very well, but Boeing's only sold something like 1400 747s in 35 years. To "Break Even" at 325 aircraft, the A380 would have to match Boeing's figures for 8 years.

So even the orders they've got are probably skittish. If boarding/deplaning is a nightmare, or if -- heaven forfend -- something should happen (like Swissair's MD-11), the A-380 could run a quick and nasty death.

Of course, it could do really well too. The folks in Toulouse know they've only got one shot at this.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2004, 11:56:09 AM by Dinger »

Offline Dinger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1705
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2004, 12:47:38 PM »
No no no, that's an ex cathedra pronouncement. It's the infallible and immutable truth!
Damn why are airbus fans so much like Mac owners?

Offline mietla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2276
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2004, 01:03:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger

Damn why are airbus fans so much like Mac owners?


right on the money :D

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2004, 01:18:52 PM »
Every single one of your points distill down to seat cost per mile, Dinger.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27251
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2004, 02:04:50 PM »
Airbus will sell plenty of A380's, even if they are off the backs of the taxpayers. ;)

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2004, 02:20:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Airbus will sell plenty of A380's, even if they are off the backs of the taxpayers. ;)


Are you saying the Boeing's arent off the backs of the taxpayers then? ;)

Offline Gh0stFT

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1736
Re: Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2004, 02:28:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
Will be a fascinating story to watch.


definitely! i still hope to get one of the first tickets for the
big A380 show :D
This thing HAVE to fly otherwise Airbus is out of the race!

R
Gh0stFT
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2004, 02:33:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Are you saying the Boeing's arent off the backs of the taxpayers then? ;)

There's a slight difference.  Airbus receives charity, eg, money from the government with no need to give anything in return.

Boeing, on the other hand, SELLS aircraft to the military.  Sure, they receive dollars from the US Government, but it's in exchange for goods and services.

I understand, the distinction may be difficult for some.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10167
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2004, 02:36:29 PM »
most people at boeing are watching the a380 with a ton of envy, and as far as the airplane goes we wish it the best in flight.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline rpm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15661
Re: Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2004, 02:57:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
Assembled in France from major parts coming from Germany, England, and Spain, the A380 requires a transporation network that includes tight squeezes through canals and narrow streets, including a three-day, mile-long truck convoy along 155 miles of small country roads, "traveling only at night and a maximum speed of 20 miles an hour."  
Do you think the 747 is produced totally on-site in Seattle? As I recall it has components shipped in from all over the globe. Doesn't the rudder come from New Zealand? Or is the rudder not considered a major part?
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline SunTracker

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1367
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2004, 02:58:50 PM »
Will airliners chose the huge A380, or the fuel effecient, 250 seat Boeing Dreamliner, with a range of 9000 miles?


Offline CMC Airboss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 705
      • http://www.cutthroats.com
Airbus 380 -- Another Concorde?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2004, 03:14:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
There's a slight difference.  Airbus receives charity, eg, money from the government with no need to give anything in return.
That is not quite true.  The low interest loans that Airbus uses to fund development and design do not have to be paid back until that model line starts making a profit.  Those loans do not "hit the books" until the break even point is reached.  As a result, there is less incentive pay back these loans by recouping the development costs as a part of the selling price.   Enron were amatuers!  Airbus does this with full backing by the governments of Europe.

MiG