Author Topic: A matter of perspective.....  (Read 3844 times)

Offline humble

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A matter of perspective.....
« on: December 27, 2004, 11:05:34 PM »
These is really a spin off from the "duplicate squad" thread...but I wanted to post it here so it wasnt buried. Basically the question is one of "respect" and perspective. As a 10 yr vet my perceptions are shaped by my "upbringing" within the game. As a general rule I guess I dont have much respect for a majority of the "new" breed and that probably transfers to the squads they belong to as well. This may or may not be unfair....but in the time and place I "grew up" in the elite squads (nomads, damned, dead etc) often split up and stomped on themselfs if the competition wasnt good enough at that moment. "Chivalry" existed and there was a legitimate "code of conduct"....

So.....

When someone from the "new school" whines about respect related issues I can only laugh, sigh and longly remember the good old days. I've got an awful lot more respect for guys like shane who still live and fly by the code (even if he IS a whiney little snot:)) then any 100 digital dirt movers.....

However, my views are simply mine and nothing more and if my comments in the other thread are/were taken in a personal manner you have my sincere appologies....no personal attacks are intended....I simply have no respect for how you choose to play the game.

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Offline mechanic

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2004, 11:36:29 PM »
i hope you are not so set in your ways as to ignore the new comers who do understand and follow the code.

that would make you equal to the 'dirt movers' in my opinion, except add old and moody to that...

ive been online flight simming for 1.5 years, so i cannot possibly know what honour and sportsmanship are, er, ok, i get ya :aok .
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Guppy35

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2004, 11:47:29 PM »
As one of those Nomads that Humble has mentioned a  couple of times, I appreciate the nice words.

At the same time, we learned from the vets we saw doing it right and tried to pass it on too.

Each wave through a flight sim learns it from the folks who got there before them and hopefully sends it on to the following wave.

My experience in AH has been a good one in terms of the people.  The AH vets have been more then receptive to this relative newbie to AH

I do think that sometimes just the sheer numbers prevents some of the same kind of community thriving as it doesn't take too many mouths to ruin things when folks try and talk on the open channel.  It gets easier to avoid it and stick to the squad channels and country channels too.

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Offline NoBaddy

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Re: A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2004, 12:01:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
....but in the time and place I "grew up" in the elite squads (nomads, damned, dead etc) often split up and stomped on themselfs if the competition wasnt good enough at that moment. "Chivalry" existed and there was a legitimate "code of conduct"....



Some of the best fights I have ever had have been versus squaddies. Funny thing is, I can remember seeing the same stuff talked about in AW 14 years ago. The big difference is the bigger number of users here. Personally, I see it as much ado about nothing. :)

Actually, what Tiff said about numbers holds a great deal of validity. In AW as the numbers increased, it became more about squads and less about the game community as a whole. I guess it's all part of "big town vs small town".
« Last Edit: December 28, 2004, 12:04:06 AM by NoBaddy »
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Offline nopoop

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2004, 12:13:39 AM »
Your grey hair is showing humble. I grew up over the fence. Over there you had the 352nd, the 4th, the 56th and the 31st to name a few good guy squads that would just bust your chops in the main.

Different time zone entirely. Mix it up and kick your *** is a thing of the past. I know what your talking about, I walk with a cane also.  It was the best.  A slice of the good times.

Don't judge from the past. Somewhere along the line the mantle wasn't passed. That's unfortunate but the blame is up the line not on those present.

Bustin chops comes with a liability that is more than most are willing to put on the line at the present time.

But that's the way it is. Somebody dropped the ball. It's a loss that can't be explained, an edge, an experience that's never seen.

Not getting to that "space" where it's the best that it can be, where time slows down, where it's burned into your memory is what I find so sad.

You HAVE to go there to come out the other side.

Sooooo many don't.

They're missing it, and in effect don't have a concept of what they're actually missing.
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight..

Offline mechanic

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2004, 01:03:56 AM »
all that needs to be done is do away with 90% of the strat features and do away with score completely.

I imagine when you guys were first flying Online Flight Sims, everyone was only interested in one thing, finding another plane to fight with.

if there was no one around to fight, then fight each other.

71 squadron RAF, my squadron, does this on a regular basis, we go DA and mix it up when MA is dead. It's a squad where myself and a couple others are the only ones who even played in AH1, the rest are new to it. But they all love the fight, love the rush, love the kill, love the firery death.

the most important thing we can do, as newbies or 15 year vets, is to keep the spirit alive within ourselves, not let the influx of air quakers and shed bashers stop our fun.

There are many, many good guys who are recent additions, and still many more flock in each week.

I see your point Humble, but i think you're being to grouchy about it. embrace the old feelings again, draw them up from your soul and you will find the satisfaction you are looking for in the MA.

remember, any problem that dweels within ones mind for too long becomes a reality for that person very quickly.


Old Budhist proverb:
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if you smoke your pipe, and believe it will eventually harm your body, then it shall.

if you smoke your pipe and believe it can do you no harm, it shall not.
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never underestimate the power our minds have on our enjoyment of all things in life.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline detch01

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2004, 01:14:56 AM »
Most of you who posted here are the generation before me in AW - I didn't show up until June of 97 in the game.  Even then I saw there some of what we see here now. The difference there was that there was an active training corps to pass it down the line. I got some of it and am glad I did - it makes this game so much better.
When I converted over to AH I got caught a couple of times in the nostalgia rut and spent my time complaining about the current crop of players.  Time that I wasted in the game. I'm going to spend more time in the TA - I don't know much but maybe what I do know I can pass down the line to pay back those that taught me. It's a start.

Cheers,
asw
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Offline Ack-Ack

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2004, 01:56:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by detch01
The difference there was that there was an active training corps to pass it down the line. I got some of it and am glad I did - it makes this game so much better.


Cheers,
asw



We have a WINNER!

While it is good to involve the community in the training process it is a mistake to solely rely on the community to do all of the training.  


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Offline SlapShot

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2004, 08:03:54 AM »
I learned everything about honor, integrity, and respect from my parents and grand-parents. These attributes must be part of your personal fabric and if you don' already have these attributes before you start playing any game, it will rear its ugly head very quickly for all to see.
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Offline lazs2

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2004, 08:04:40 AM »
what?  train em to kill toolsheds?

lazs

Offline TexMurphy

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2004, 08:56:32 AM »
Respect and honor are two important things when it comes to gaming. Games are about having fun and online games arnt just about YOU having fun but also the pilot on the other side.

It is important that both pilots have fun or a one will mostlikely not play anymore and eventually there will be no one to fight.

Further it imho is pure human decensy to not have fun at cost of others but together with others.

This said the strive for honor, respect and fair play cant go overboard.

When I used to play Jumpgate there was a very big strive to have fair and honorable gameplay. That was all good but imho that strive went way to far.

The strive to have fair gameplay went so far that a 9v10 fight was unfair. It was lame ganking.

Setting a trap for someone was lame. Basicly any usage of tactics other then a heads up fight with exactly equal numbers became frown upon. (Im exhaduarting abit, but it wasnt far from this).

What this did was it took away alot of the tactical and strategical aspect of combat.

In situations where one side was outnumbered people started to demand that they be offered a duel. A duel where everyone else would just sit and watch.

Since it is a 3 faction game it happened more often then not that the 3rd side would come in unaware of the situation and start shooting. People beeing AFK due to all the waiting surounding the duel would get shot down. Fleets would get totally disorganized. People beeing called lamers and screaming because the duel was interupted.

There is a ballance between having fun at someones expence and deploying solid tactics.

But it is for the vets to carry on the tradition of the game and mentor the new pilots. It may sound like a cliche but new pilots dont know better until told so.

If a new pilot sees a vet vulching then he will vulch. If a new pilot sees a vet trash talk after a fight then he will trash talk. ect ect

If new pilots and new squads are viewed as "hopeless cases that better be ignored" then they will be hopeless cases. Trust me most new pilots dont play to lame and they are willing to be gentle men but just dont know how.

Also since the learning curve is so high of this game and there are so many darn good pilots around they are happy to get a kill any way they can. If they arnt trained, thought and mentored they will be happy to take the cheap kill and it will be the only way they know how to get one.

What Im saying is that its very much in the hands of the vets how the noobs turn out.

If the new generation of pilots isnt as respectable as the old generation its not their fault. Its not them to blame. Its actually the inadequacy of the vets in the area of mentoring that is the cause.

I dont mean this as a flame of you or any vet inperticular. But many vets, in any game, tend to sit on a very high horse and dont reach down to take up a new guy to join em in the sadle. They keep lookin down, swearing and whining about how things where better in the good old days.

Tex

Offline Charon

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2004, 09:52:56 AM »
I started flying AW 93/94, and the shift occurred, IMO, with Gamestorm and the BIG PORK. Gameplay remained somewhat constant with the move to AOL, and I took part in the initial Gamestorm "Big Week" crash fest mission, with an additional 1-2 sorties in the beta arena, then took a year off. My first experience on return was following a high P-51 x2 sectors into the "rear" waiting for him to engage. He eventually died to ack on a lone bombing run at an undefended field with no practical value of any sort while I watched trying to catch him in his dive. A year previous and he would have engaged -- not might have engaged -- would have engaged.

I quickly found that this was the way the game was played now, with groups of milkrunners off in separate corners on the huge map avoiding anything but the highest favorable odds and porking the fuel away from any resistance at least two sectors deep. A2G and the "War" was more important than A2A in a game where A2G had consistently been nothing more than a means to more A2A previously (at least in FR, can't comment on RR).  

Obviously, the big change was numbers. IMO, the earlier game was populated by people who had a passion for WW2 aerial combat, and were willing to pay the dues to emulate their heroes of that conflict. For example, by 7th grade I could rattle off the top speed of most of the famous fighters of WW2. My first big save-up purchase as a kid was Edward Jablonski's "Airwar" which had taunted me from the publications section of Wings and Airpower magazines for several years. And regardless of the overwhelming contribution of strategic and tactical bombing, and the support role of A2A fighters, it was the A2A combat that captured the imagination. Bong, Hartmann, McGuire, Foss, O’Hare, MCCampbell, Boyington, Tuck, Bader, Galland, Rudel -- all names I knew well before I entered High School (and I’m sure I was not alone).

The dues were spending a year learning to get a consistent positive k/d in an environment populated with sharks who knew e-management and had tuned situational awareness far beyond the AI in some boxed game. Tough, ego bruising stuff, but worth the effort if you wanted to be a virtual Robert Johnson. I think the game is populated today with gamers who have, at best, a limited appreciation for history beyond the occasional show on discovery wings. An LA-7 is nothing more than a plasma cannon, the Tempest a BFG9000, the MC202 a pistol. Success is measured by winning the war, with the ego is protected by achieving the bigger goal (a base capture and a few vulch kills with a bunch of buddies) rather than winning a hard dogfight.

AH has now arrived at the big pork. It is still easier to find a fight than the big pork days of AW -- still a higher percentage of fun factor -- but it can be discouraging. I don’t have any real disrespect for the new “gamers” but I suppose I do wonder about their choice of game. AH is the Ferrari of virtual WW2 A2A combat simulators, but the strategic component is nothing more than steamroller tic/tac/toe - a Yugo by comparison. There are numerous war games and “god” games out there that provide much better strategic gameplay. Hell, online chess is readily available and is much more sophisticated. It probably gets back to the ego thing there too. Those tend to be 1v1 games (without the gang of buddies to help) and when you lose, you got beat.

Charon
« Last Edit: December 28, 2004, 10:00:16 AM by Charon »

Offline detch01

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2004, 10:29:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
what?  train em to kill toolsheds?

lazs


Yeah Laz - exactly that.  And just just because I want to get your respect. :rolleyes:
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Offline guttboy

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2004, 11:23:15 AM »
Hmmmmm.....

I am hearing some very good points in this thread.  I came from the AW community since its inception.  Stayed true to one squadron and eventually became their CO.

I am finding some of the things about gangbanging discouraging.  There are times (squad nights) when my squadron wants to get bases and take land....it is fun for alot of us guys and involves planning and execution.  With that being said...I dont like getting in with the mass green hoarde.  In fact, I stay away from it.

I am also finding it hard to get some good 1v1 fights in.  Perhaps its the times I log on or perhaps there are none.

Unfortunately when you get the chance to encounter a good dogfite there usually is someone there to spoil it.  It happens on all sides of the fight.

When I engage someone (provided its not the 50 plane cluster flock) I ask if there is anyone fighting them.  Lotta times someone has a grudge against said "KI84" or "DAMN SPITTY"...Ill let em have it.  I also ask if guys need help.  This doesnt happen much.

Anyhow my observations.  I dont think the dueling arena is any better because the last 5 times I have been there it has been a gaggle.

Best wishes to all!

:aok

Offline dedalos

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A matter of perspective.....
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2004, 11:33:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
I learned everything about honor, integrity, and respect from my parents and grand-parents. These attributes must be part of your personal fabric and if you don' already have these attributes before you start playing any game, it will rear its ugly head very quickly for all to see.


I was going to make some remarks about vets who don't have respect for new guys, but then I saw this.

<<<>>> SlapShot

PS. you guys - unless you treat sick animals - are not really vets.  You just have been plaing a game for a long time.  Get off your high white horses and refer to your selfs as long time gamers.  If you want respect, you have to give respect.  Don;t complain about some one that does not know what YOU did not teach him.

Oh well, I made them anyway, lol
« Last Edit: December 28, 2004, 12:21:10 PM by dedalos »
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.