Author Topic: Exploring P-38 agility  (Read 6261 times)

Offline OLtos

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Agility
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2004, 10:15:15 PM »
Great post widewing.

There is one thing that bugged me about the p-38 for two years of play plus through that part of the original beta run I participated in.

Every time I flew the P-38 and tried to turn it I would wind up in the most wicked snap rolls I have ever seen.  The plane would depart from controlled flight at the slightest sounding of the stall horn.   I was furious.  I made post after post on the matter, which I see now are all gone.  And no one even offered an answer.  All I ever got was, essentially, "Sit down! Shutup!  And be thankful you have a sim to play."   Many have noted I am very critical of AH, my angst was and remains fueled by these kinds of responses.  But that's unimportant.  It began to look to me like there was something wrong with the version of the game I had vs what everyone else was playing.

Everytime I read a post on the P38 there would be these absolutely GLOWING reviews of it's agility, for the most part historically accurate too.  But MY p-38 was just awful.  I couldn't figure it out.  I almost quit AH over the matter when suddenly a version appeared with Stall Limiter.  WOW I could actually FLY it finally.  Stall limter kept me in the game.   And occaisionally I could do some cool things with the P-38.  But it still seemed like there were two different P-38s in the game.  Then I found out that there are!

You see I always flew with a full load of ammunition.  500 rounds of .50 caliber ammo per gun.  I thought that was better than peanut butter.   Then one day, two years after getting into this silliness I tried the plane with the 200 round per gun option.  Oh... My... God.

After a good hour kicking myself for being a fool, then cursing every flinty hearty miser out there who had been laughing at me all that time, I realised that AH has much more detailed weight and balance modeling than I ever thought it had.  

Now I am Ex-Army.  I know very well thankyou that .50 call amo is very heavy.  So I did a little homework and found out that .50 cal ammo weighs .3 pounds per round, linked.  At 200 rounds per gun I had removed 1200 rounds of .50 ammo.  Thats almost 450 POUNDS, and all that weight is located forward of the pilot.

So for all those folks out there who read these reports of fantastic manuveablity in the 38.  Remember there ARE two completely diffrent flying versions.  One with 2000 rounds of .50 call ammo in the nose and one with only 800.   It makes a difference.   But, I still need the stall limiter to keep me in the air in dogfights.  I am firmly convinced that some sticks throw more control than others.

What I'd rather have is the ability to scale my stick at 100% of throw.  As it stands we cant do that.  90% yes 100% no.  But, that's another gripe.

Offline OLtos

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2 P-38s? Yep. It's true
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2004, 10:25:32 PM »
Firs I'd like to digress to the dive flaps.  They do not, never did and never will pull your nose up.  That isn't their function.  The primary function of the dive flap is to allow the elevator of the 38 to function in a compressed dive.  In addition to and secondary to that, the dive flap slows accelration so that over time it takes you longer to get into compression speeds.  In normal flight all those things will do is hamper how quickly you accelerate.

Second.  Here it is again It's like the two of you are talking about two entirely different planes.  Maybe OIO is flying with the 500 rnd/gun MG option instead of the 200.   It would make sense.

Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
I've never lost control due to auto flap retraction. Sure, I've had them retract many times, but a touch of top rudder offsets the tendency to drop a wing. Frankly, it's no problem whatsoever. Besides, I like flying the P-38 on the ragged edge, because it is one of the very best knife fighters in the game.

The problem with the P-38 is it is the most difficult fighter to truly master in the plane set. Moreover, you will never master it by flying in the MA only. Why? Because 90% of the fights in the MA are high-speed engagements. To really explore its limits, you need to spend 50 hours or more in the TA/DA fighting against good sticks in their favorite rides.

I had several fun fights with a skilled Spitfire pilot who maintains a 6-7/1 K/D flying Spits in the MA tour after tour. He had a SpitV with 25% gas, I had the P-38 with the same 25%. We engaged pretty much Co-E and Co-alt. We flew a series of merges and reversals, with the Lightning beating the Spit on the reverse every time. Eventually, the Spit had burned off most of his E and it wasn't difficult to gain an advantage and stay glued to his six regardless of what he did. After a few minutes of this, I pulled off and reefed around into a nice lufberry to the left. I wanted to see if I could beat the SpitV at what it does best, sustained turning. I flew a wide circle allowing the Spit to get within 90 degrees of me from behind. Then, I pulled it in tight and around we went. After 1 turn, we were 180 degrees apart and he dumped his flaps in an effort to tighten his radius. Near the end of the third complete turn, I had enough lead to put a long burst into his cockpit. Since we were in the TA, no damage is sustained, so the fight goes on. The Spit reverses out of the lufberry and I kick some rudder, reverse the ailerons and stay to the inside, drilling him again. He then pulled too hard, stalled and impacted the water. Afterwards, we talked about the duel. He said he was pushing the Spit as hard as it would go, circling at 80 mph, the stall warning howling the whole time and the Spit a hair's breath from snapping into a spin. Meanwhile, the P-38 was rock steady, barely twitching and responding to rudder very well.

We had similar results a bit earlier when he took up a Niki, except the Niki was considerably easier to abuse. Another MA regular (Nun) observed the engagements and was equally surprised at the capabilities of the P-38 when in the UFO mode. I was as surprised as anyone... I only regret not filming it...

My regards,

Widewing
acceleration acceleration acceleration

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Agility
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2004, 10:45:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OLtos

What I'd rather have is the ability to scale my stick at 100% of throw.  As it stands we cant do that.  90% yes 100% no.  But, that's another gripe.


sorry to side track here, but you should have full 100% input if all sliders are at the top alll the way across from 10 to 90

and deadband and dampening are at the bottom, only use deadband /dampening to remove stick spikes and other movements like resting hand on joystick and inadvertently moving it or feet accidently pressing slightly on a rudder pedal
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline MOSQ

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2005, 12:29:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That's because it's a different model and a different game.  But if you really want to know, the P-38L in AH is far easier to fly than the P-38J we had in AW.  The only thing the P-38J in AW has over the P-38L in AH was the lack of auto-retracting flaps.  Other than that, whatever you were able to do in the P-38J in AW, you can do and more with the P-38L in AH.


ack-ack


There was one other thing: The AW P-38 had the amazing "Speed Brake" Dive Flaps. The AHII 38 dive flaps aren't nearly as effective at the speed brake.

Offline DoctorYO

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2005, 01:01:14 PM »
whats this heretic blasphemy about my zeke..  i cry foul......

The guy who couldn't get his zeke around most likely was not adjusting trim before his takeoff run...   Trim should be 1/3 to halfway from lowest position on takeoff and by the time you hit 70-80 mph pop flaps and pull a 2-3 g reversal...  if he kept his trim full up (defualt takeoff) then the underpowered zeke can barely get out of its own way..

I dont think the p38 can be more nimble as the zeke at those super slo mo speeds..  above 200 mph the p38 will turn with a zeke but much like the super ki, the zeke works best between 150 and 200 near its corner stall speed velocity... (thing rips at about 180mph...)

No discredit to the 38 because the 38 can mix up some B&Z and energy fight the zeke at near untouchability...



DoctorYo


Phear the Zeke...... 38 blasphemy "gizmo kaka"

Offline BUG_EAF322

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2005, 04:10:58 PM »
3 days ago i was bounced by 1 f4u 1 zero and 1 hellcat.

i finished them all even the zero remarkably couldn't turn with me i saw him wobble than tried to leave the fight.

poor zero

yesterday i did a fight with another f4u we went to the deck also i finished him.

but than i saw that nik tard incoming i shot him before .

He wanted his revenche i was really slow and tried to extend.

but he came closer and closer at the distance of 1.5 i turned on him i imidiatly got on his tail he never expected that after that we did slow turning on the deck.

i was even out of wep but i kept the advantage beeing able to keep a shot him while he couldn't get a shot on me.

I'm a lousy shot but i pinged him many times someone friendly cherry picked him but i still got the kill dough.

Flying since 1.03 P38 only no DA

no sientific sjit just fly the pig.

The G2 with APAR in it  is very dangerous dough :)

The P38 is a lovely plane

Offline Ike 2K#

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2005, 10:58:31 PM »
Does anyone have a new tactic against the Ki-84?

Offline DoctorYO

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2005, 10:21:57 AM »
Both the zeke and the new Ki have vulnrabilities when they transition from high to medium speed to stall speed ...  they suffer the limitations of a 6g's (blackout) before they can get to stall speed where they will out radii about anything at 2-3.5g turn.....

That transition period is where they are most vulrable before they can pop their flaps..

note the zeke is less vulnrable then the KI but it works on both.. The 38 can flap at 250 to the zekes / Ki 150-160 range..  draw your own conclusions...

A experienced zeke/ki pilot will minimize this window by slip(rudder) usage and use of the high yoyo/barrel roll with throttle management to slow them down to their radii attack mode..



DoctorYo


PS in stall fighting you must not only consider turn/corner velocity but radii as well... even when in the 38... in fact in a 1 vs 1 i would go radii all day long at the helm of a 38 due to its docile characteristics..

Offline Red Tail 444

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Exploring P-38 agility
« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2005, 04:35:02 PM »
Yup, I was suprised why I couldnt shake a P38 on my six in an F4U-1 since I came back.. either the pilots learned how to fly, I forgot how to fly, or both...

even the rolling scissors wasn't helping...very frustrating indeed.