Hordes!

[crims]

If you think there is no problem with a Horde. When your country is doing this. Land Change Sides and fight against it:D. Then Repost:eek:



Crims
479th Raiders

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones

Some people find enjoyment in taking a huge number of planes to a base and capturing it, Especially if it's undefended. I joined a 30+ plane P-38 mission last night. I was in the back of the pack when we got to the target, I never got a chance to drop my ord on anything. It was all gone. I dumped ord and started flying fighter cover. Problem was there were to many planes. Couldn't even get close to a kill. I'd have had more fun flying for the enemy. The other people on the mission were having a good time. You could tell by the chatter.  

  That just about sums up the problem.
  Taking that many people to a single base is equal to a big red ON/OFF switch.
  When you hit the base with that many folks and wipe out everything you turn the switch to OFF. It essentialy turns OFF the game for anyone in that area. It turns OFF any threat. It turns OFF any enemy possibilities and puts you in a non-game mode. Most of all, it turns OFF any chance for fun.

  I think a reasonably sized mission is great because usualy it results in a battle for that base and area, but when you run this many in at once it eliminates any competition.
  It could probably be helped somewhat by limiting numbers allowed in a mission and numbers allowed to up from a single area, but I`d hate to see this happen. I would much rather see the player base address the problem and take care of it themselves, as it should be.

[Skydancer]

I have tried fighting the horde. Very frustrating as you tend to get vlched to death! However when you do manage to sneak up and get a few pings or better still kills its very satisfying. I've been in the horde and fought against it. So i do knoiw what you are talking about.

All i'm saying is that until Hitech tweeks the arenas a bit more ( refer to my earlier posts 0 i think it will happen so no point in moaning about it. just outwit it or join it whatever enjoy.

Oh and please can so called senior members try to take a seemingly less condesending attitude to newer players.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Skydancer

Oh and please can so called senior members try to take a seemingly less condesending attitude to newer players.

  Maybe you can help us out here by revealing what your ingame ID is instead of playing who done it on the boards. ......
..... I think it was the butler with a toilet plunger btw.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Skydancer
[B

All i'm saying is that until Hitech tweeks the arenas a bit more ( refer to my earlier posts 0 i think it will happen so no point in moaning about it. just outwit it or join it whatever enjoy.

 [/B]

Oh  there is nothing wrong with the way the arena is set (refer to my earlier post), it`s a problem within the player base. The players can fix or ignore it.
  There`s a big difference in moaning about something than there is getting it out on the table and discussing it.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by rshubert
Bullsheeite call!

In reality, until 8th AAF decided to go after the luftwaffe, everything that could be done TO AVOID CONTACT with enemy fighters was done.  Diversionary raids, sneaky stuff, chaff drops...you name it.  The primary concept of mobile 20th century warfare is maneuver and "hit 'em where they ain't".

Look at the numbers, fellas.  We kill more pilots in this game in a typical week than have died in all the wars of the 20th century.

You are speaking of trying to get unescorted bombers through to targets. Of course the unescorted bombers did not want to fight. When they had escort later they did everything possible to encourage the luftwaffe to come up and fight.

[Darkish]

Sick of it.....

[MnkyMeat]

Who cares about hords!!
yah they are anoying,,, oh well

Seems what most people try to do is win the MAP that is how the game is set up. there si also those that dont care and just wanna fly and kills stuff.
The objective is capture Fields to win the map

best way to do that is attack fast in a group with surprise or overwelming numbers.. .. and that is just what happens, and this won't change, unless they get rid of field captures and winning the reset!   But that would suck there would be no objectives and the game would get boring!

 Attack the hored I do....  your out numbered 20 to 1 ,,, so u need advantage to counter thier #s,,, speed and alt!  get it and use it down as many horders as you can till your buddies finaly show up and rtb with your kills!  Its very satisfying! haha

Hey people say your a score potato for landing etc.....
My objective is to land every plane.... with kills or no kills,, that how I like to play... lose as little planes or none (<< hasnt happened yet)  in a month as posible. "Live to tell about it"

When You run from the hord they cry and say U chicken... well they are idiots because they joined the hord and thier own fault that there is only 2 NME to kell between the 20 of them.
So the hord got the field but they saw no action.... so U pick what you want to do,,,

I fly both because it gets boring doing the same thing all the time.

Hords do suck when the sides are totaly uneven.... i.e 140 rooks 130 nits and 95 bish.... gets overwhelming ,,,, but its still fun... get great perks and can fly perk planes for cheap. just make sure your not flying one when the reset comes  

So if hord meets a hord thats just the coolest!!! looks awsome and is lots of fun!

Wow that was long.. .. anyway the moral of the story is

PORKCHOPINMYBOOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MonkeyMeat

[A_Clown]

Originally posted by Darkish
Sick of it.....

WOW, that looks like soooo much fun! (dripping with sarcasm)

I'm not missing loggin in to look at that i'll tell ya! HA!

[jamusta]

Originally posted by A_Clown
WOW, that looks like soooo much fun! (dripping with sarcasm)

I'm not missing loggin in to look at that i'll tell ya! HA!

This is the gameplay i am talking about. now if the 2 hordes met think of the fun of trying to capture a base and defending a base. The furballers get to furball and the strat guys get to blow stuff up. GV guys could blast away. Now that would be fun.

[Kweassa]

This is the gameplay i am talking about. now if the 2 hordes met think of the fun of trying to capture a base and defending a base. The furballers get to furball and the strat guys get to blow stuff up. GV guys could blast away. Now that would be fun.

 Yes it would.

 Except currently, nothing can force anyone into doing that. And I'd say after months and years of MA experience, it's safe to assume that people will never, ever put themselves in voluntary danger.

 IMO the MA seriously needs some sort of basic structure, or organization enforced by the system. Without something like this, no amount of encouragement will spread the numbers apart and force people to fight against each other.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Yes it would.

 Except currently, nothing can force anyone into doing that. And I'd say after months and years of MA experience, it's safe to assume that people will never, ever put themselves in voluntary danger.

 

That's not entirely true...Small maps force people to do exactly that. The very finite fronts force hordes to fight instead of overwhelm undefended areas. The simple fact is human nature seeks the path of least resistance, if there is one, the horde will take it. Only when faced with no other alternative, as is the case on the smaller maps, do the hordes consistantly and inevitably end up duking it out...


Zazen

[Kweassa]

The small problem is, Zazen, people also hate being stuck in small maps. We can keep encouraging HTC or the map makers to create teeney weeney maps for an arena full of 500 people, except sooner or later people are gonna hate that too.

 In real life, every freedom has checks and balances that discourage indulgence. However, in the MA, whenever a big terrain lands on the plattter the absolute absence of rules and regulations just fuels the frustration of hordism like highspeed winds on wildfire.

 I think its safe to say everyone's effectively sick and tired of the 'vulch or be vulched' status in the large maps. Whenever I log on, its always a choice between "go try and actually organize an opposition against a horde, which usually fails and you'll typically be facing 5 vs 1 odds", or "ignore your friends who actually try to look at the bigger side of the issue, and go join the horde and have a good time spanking town buildings".

 I say its time to start thinking practically and take some steps to divide fronts and use at least semi-limited assets. Total freedom in the MA without any stipulations, at least in the large maps, are also self-destructive.

 I advocate a two-airforce system that divides people into one independant airforces at each front. People who want to transfer to the other front will have to find someone to swap places with via a centralized relocation system. New logons will be automatically placed at an 'airforce' that is smaller in numbers.

 This will always ensure there is roughly equal sized enemy presence on whatever front you are fighting at. There will still be "local hordes" but its size will be only half of what it used to be. The only drawback is it will take some time to find a swapper, if you wish to transfer to the 2nd airforce fighting against a different country.

 It's not even a total limitation of choice, but just adding some basic procedures to player relocation so that local numbers will always have some kind of enemy opposition,, which is not overwhelming but simularly sized.

 IMO there's nothing to lose and lots to gain.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Kweassa
The small problem is, Zazen, people also hate being stuck in small maps. We can keep encouraging HTC or the map makers to create teeney weeney maps for an arena full of 500 people, except sooner or later people are gonna hate that too.

 

To my knowledge no small maps have been created in the last 3 years (when I started playing AH). All new maps that have been created are HUGE. As far as being stuck. I haven't seen a small map last more than 48 hrs in I don't know how long....A very long time anyways, and then it was usually only Baltic or occassionally NDIsles just becuase everyone was too busy furballing on the center Isle to care about resetting the map.

Just for a case study I just looked at the MA as of 11 pm CST Sat. night. The front between the 3 countries is a total of 32 sectors, 19 sectors have cons in them. But, the vast majority of the cons are in about 8 or 9 sectors. In those 8 or 9 sectors there are few if any defenders attempting to counter 20 to 30+ attackers. So, basically, even though there are 432 people in the arena there is little if any real fighting going on, just a few stalwart base defenders getting semi-vulched for the cause here and there in the face of an overwhelming horde. On a map of smaller proportions with something much smaller than the almost 300 bases on the current map the status quo of NON-fighting we have would not be possible. With almost 300 fields during anytime but absolute peak US prime-time there is enough bases for each person to have their own personal field and sector...That just seems rediculous to me...

Take other games for example, not necessarily just flight sims, maps are designed to bring people together along a relatively concentrated front. The point is to encourage interaction or concentrations of force (multi-sided concentrations), few if any of the large maps do this. What we have is long rather disjointed front lines and no impetus whatsoever for forces to contest choke points or any other area of strategic or any other significance.

So, naturally it's just capture motivated hordes swarming  remote and largely undefended areas on every side, no fighting really, just milkrunning. That in itself would not be so bad, but the sheer plurality of the bases make any one, several or even many of them insignificant relative to the total number of fields. So, unless one team has been chopped down to a small slice of the map there is no real reason to defend so long as your horde is replacing lost bases as fast or faster than the other guy's horde can take yours...YYYyyyyaaaaaaawwwwwwn nnn!

On small maps, you bloody well defend, because if you lose 3 fields and you only had 30 to begin with, that's 10 percent of your holdings. On a HUGE maps 3 bases compared to 100 is just 3%, meaningless even moreso if you are just replacing that 3% elsewhere, uncontested..It's just the math of geographic economics..

People are going to fly together, co-operatively, no matter what. Humans are social beings and organization is encouraged and provided for by the game interface. So, hordes will exist no matter what in one form or another, for better or worse. The maps dictate how those hordes behave and interact if at all. On HUGE maps there is little or no need for hordes to interact, the end goal of capturing bases is actually best served by actively avoiding the other horde(s). On small maps with relatively few fields, the exact opposite is true, the end goal is best served by vehemently defending your country's meager holdings, while at the same time putting the other guy's meager holdings in jeoprady. This forces the hordes to interact. So, there'll always be hordes but:

Hordes + HUGE maps = base capturing shell game of NON-interaction.

Hordes + small maps = vehement defense and concentrated interactive competition  for the relatively few and precious bases.



Zazen

[Kweassa]

The problem is, an indirect method of map creation that is supposed to "bring people together" can only go so far. Make 'bottle necks' on the terrain by use of mountains... create small strips of accessible land so low-mid alt fighters can only pass through there... place airfields in a pattern so people only get to attack one airfield at a time... or place GV/PT spawns close to each other.. etc etc.

 In every map becomes the same. Some maps which have different physics are criticized harshly. Take the "Big Isles" for example. It's a very different map concept compared to the rest that expands the basic idea of "NDIsles". Except the large ocean gaps make milkruns everywhere. To fight that plague, the only solution is to place more fields closer to each other, which in turn kills everything the "Big Isles" has in variety and turns it into the same ol' same ol'. Besides, small maps are definately not without hordes.

 The problem is greater than just can be handled by fiddling with the map alone. It is an inherent, social problem of the people that constitute the new MA. The MA has changed to a fully warring mentality:

* "Nationalism" between countries
* maximal use of force
* efficiency over tradition
* horde of amateuers over special few veterans
* quantity over quality


 All of the aspects which makes a War is already in place. It's totally different from the MA I first witnessed when I joined during AH1.05. However, none of the factors which makes a war a war and not just a gang-fight slugfest, are absent from the game. Strategics, logistics, human resource relocation, coordinated goals, etc etc.
 
 None of these were really needed during 1.04, 1.05 days. There weren't enough people to handle sophisticated internal physics of the war. It's different now.

 I'm not asking to restructure AH2 into a WW2OL. I'm just advocating that at least some sort of basic management is needed on a system level, to ensure that people still can get a fight on whatever map they fly in.

 Just as the TOD is planned will factor in a system that will create missions that are 'scripted' so that the two hostile forces always get to see some action, the MA also needs a system that will ensure that people will have to do more than just group up to achieve what they want.

 Divide the people into two fronts. Two different airforces in a single country. This in effect, is the same thing as total six countries in the MA with three sets of two country-alliance. Each Bish, Knit, Rook will have two airforces which takes charge of each front, which the player can belong to only one of them at a given time.

 In other words, it sort of organizes the MA that the gameplay resembles the conditions that we used to see in the old days, but does not take a retro-step such as making two separate MAs.