Author Topic: P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?  (Read 3270 times)

Offline DanielMcIntyre

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« on: November 01, 2001, 09:40:00 AM »
We'll I finally think i've figured out the P38.

I tried to fly the P38 a couple of days ago, 2 sorties, both ended up no kills finished by embarrassing augers.  P38 story of my life.

Happened again today, dive on con, lock, auger.  So I mapped my Elev up and Elev down keys to my joystick and started flying without combat trim.  Result: 18 kills, 5 deaths, only 2 deaths from combat, 2 from lack of fuel and some tree's, and 1 I forgot to disable combat trim and augered.

So am I right in assuming combat trim porks the P38 to death?  Or am I missing something here?

couple of other questions:

1. what are the autotrim modes i've heard about.
2. After a coalt merge with a La7 or Yak can P38 escape by outclimbing and what would be suggested climbrate?
3. When in a slow turnfight with say a G6 vs P38, when do I deploy flaps, how much up trim should I use and how many notches of flap?

Offline Westy MOL

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2001, 09:46:00 AM »
I think you may be on to somehting with the P-38. I found the P-38 to be nice now. Still compresses worse than most imo but m,anageable. Yet others said it was still a squeak in compression. I think they use CT also.

auto trim level = X
auto trim angle - shift X

Those are the only two I use. I maunally trim  my planes for the most part. And I trim to keep the "ball" centered in the slip guage. That way my shots are on target. I may use extra trim to help move my plane in any specific direction; more up trim to climb, left trim for roll or turn left, etc etc. Only experience with doing it yourself willshow what I mean.

 As for LA7? I can easily out turn most I encounter when low and slow. I use one, maybe two at most, notches of flaps. Same with any other plane but an N1K2 or Spit. I also will use the speed flap/break to help turn when I'm going too fast and want to make a lead turn into a bogy. I release it 1/2 way thru the turn or just before I start to level out so it does not conitnue to slow me down more. It's a good working last ditch maneuver and not one I would advise using in a multi-con environment.

Westy

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

Offline Zigrat

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2001, 09:59:00 AM »
p38 can eat up an la7

p38 is an awesome plane

dont use combat trim it takes away the feeling of flight. in fact i would advise against using even auto level angle etcera, but i use them but i shouldnt, they also take away the feeling of flight.

in the p38 being slow is a good thing with anything but a niki or a spit or a zeke. it accelerates pretty welll and has good flaps for turning.

Offline Zigrat

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2001, 10:00:00 AM »
with a g6 you can kill it easily using flaps, start out with 2 notches and dump em all to scoot over the top then nail him. against the la7 you can do well also. the yak is much tougher i really hate fighting yaks. it is fast and accelerates like a crack monkey and small and turns well. i would stay away from yaks.

Offline Tac

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2001, 10:55:00 AM »
combat trim makes you lose E on the vertical, dont use CTrim with the 38. Lately ive been using C-Trim BUT always disabling it before going into a vertical fight.

The only sure way you have to defeat a yak or an la7 in a 38 is to get them in the deck and stall fight them. Yak is always the hardest, but if you play the E game and wait until you get a true firing solution, you'll win...if you keep trying to go for a shot, leading the yak on your sights, you will lose.

The thing you have to be extremely careful in the 38 is the bs flap-induced spin and of course, compression and getting hit in your glass tail   ;).

"After a coalt merge with a La7 or Yak can P38 escape by outclimbing and what would be suggested climbrate"

Not possible. they outclimb you. They can turn 180 and get ya. Once you merge with them, you're commited.

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]

Offline Am0n

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »
I dont see how you guys fly this AC, as ive stated in a few other p38 lightening post.. But you guys that do it, do it damn well.

I sit down in this thing, in every turn i stall out, cant turn with anyone, cant out loop anything. normaly dieing a quick painless 1 ping 2 engine dead death.

im used to the jug, i take it these 2 birds dont fly the same.  

I think i might try the manual trim tips here out in my jug though, see how she like it. I use it now to avoid compression but not to manuever .

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]

Offline Lephturn

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2001, 11:49:00 AM »
Let me clarify what combat trim does, and when you should and should not use it.

Combat trim, as I understand it, is basically a table of trim conditions that map to various airspeeds, but it's not a large table, so most of the time it doesn't trim you exactly right.  These trim conditions are for a clean airframe well within the normal flight envelope.  What I mean by that is, it seems that combat trim doesn't have trim settings for very slow or very fast speeds, only the more middle range.  For example in the P-38, I would say to disable CT and use manual trim under 200MPH or over 400MPH.  Luckily, the second you hit the manual trim key, the CT is disengaged, and you can re-engage it again by using any of the three auto trim modes.  You can have the best of both worlds.   :)  The P38 is probably the plane that will use CT the least, since it's "normal flight envelope" is pretty small between high speed for it and when you start deploying combat flaps.  Other planes like the Jug have a much wider range where you want to use CT... I use CT from about 180 to almost 500 in the Jug.  In most planes, in most situations, you can just leave CT on all the time and be competitive, but the Fork Tailed Devil seems to be more sensitive than most.

CT is useful for BnZ type fighting where you are rapidly changing speeds within your normal flight envelope with a clean airframe.  If you have drop tanks, it won't trim you properly.  If you use flaps, it won't trim you properly.  If you are flying too slowly, it won't trim you properly.  Etc.  So what I would do is as I get to the top of a loop as I engage and my speed is dropping below 200, I would pop a notch of flap and dial in a bit of nose-up trim to compensate.  That disables my CT and I manual trim for the rest of the fight, or unless I'm in a situation where I use my auto-trim modes.

Now, the question was, how do you figure out how much to trim at a given speed, altitude, and flap position?  The best way is to use the auto trim modes to do it for you!

Take a look at this article I wrote a while back.  It has not been updated for combat trim, but the basics still apply for using the auto trim modes and manual trim settings:  http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/trim.htm

The bottom line is that you will have to learn your aircraft so that you have a rough idea how much manual trim you need to dial in as you slow to low speed, and deploy varying degrees of flap.  The only way to do this is to test.  What you do is pick an altitude and fuel state, and get yourself there in your plane.  Now decide on a speed... say 150 IAS if that is your sustained turning speed.  Now you figure in a turn fight you'll have 3 notches of flap out at this speed... deploy that.  Next type in ".speed 150" into the radio.  Engage your auto-trim for speed mode (the one you use to climb) and let the plane stabilize... it is now perfectly trimmed for that altitude, speed, weight, and flap condition.  Next you disengage the auto-trim mode and pull in your flaps, but try to keep the plane at the same speed by climbing a bit and/or cutting throttle.  Once you have stabilized, use your manual trim to trim the plane out to fly at that speed... record how much trim you had to use.  So if you were clean at 150 and dropped the same amount of flaps, you would need to put in that amount of trim in the opposite direction to compensate.  Next let the plane speed up to your normal cruising speed, say 250.  You'll have to hold it level, because as you speed up your trim state will get out of whack.  Once you are at your cruise speed, trim the plane for level flight again manually, and again record how much trim you had to dial in.  You now know roughly how much trim you have to use as you change from 150 to 250 MPH at that altitude, flap condition... etc.  When you are doing this, don't worry about anything but elevator trim at first, and don't get too exact... just get close.  You can also judge it by looking at your trim indicators instead of counting keystrokes if you like.

The point of all of that is not to know EXACTLY how many keystrokes of trim you need for every situation, but just to learn roughly how much you are going to need to adjust when using manual trim when you change speeds or deploy flaps.  A key point is knowing which direction to trim when you deploy flaps, and roughly how much.  Each plane is going to work a bit differently, so the best way to figure this out is to test it in your favourite ride.

Personally, I just leave CT on all the time, and disable it by using manual trim when I am extremely slow and using flaps, or when I am diving to INSANE SPEED (TM).  Actually I'll normally use auto-trim angle or auto-trim for speed to get perfectly trimmed INSANE SPEED (TM) dives.

Does that make sense?  Questions?

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]

Offline Vermillion

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2001, 01:32:00 PM »
The only way for a 38 to beat a Yak-9U or a La7 by speed or climb is to either be very high, ie 25k+ (even then, good luck) or to get them very slow and turning with you.

Like someone else said earlier in the thread, once you merge, its turn or die.

Offline DanielMcIntyre

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Thanx for responses guys, very helpful.


  :D

Offline DanielMcIntyre

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2001, 08:14:00 PM »
Quote
 

Originally posted by Aamon:

I dont see how you guys fly this AC, as ive stated in a few other p38 lightening post.. But you guys that do it, do it damn well.



My thoughts exactly b4 I disabled CTrim.  I'm P38 newbie and don't really know what i'm doing but I'm flying it like a Tiffie and it seems to be working okay.  Except P38 suprisingly seems to be superior to the typhoon in lots of ways.  

Tac I havn't noticed the glass tail thing yet, I got hit by N1K yesterday from my 6, 2 pings, no damage, got flak hit, only oil damage one engine, spit got me in turnfight with G10, took lots of mg hits b4 my tail came off?  Tiffie has glass tail as well, I think worse then P38.

Offline empire2

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2001, 08:45:00 PM »
what does combat trim do????  :confused:   :confused:   :confused:   :confused:   :confused:   :confused:   :confused:
I diddlyING LOVE ACES HIGH

Offline Ghosth

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2001, 10:56:00 PM »
IMO the old days of a p38 icon = free lunch sign are gone.

A low one vs a La7 with speed is still toast.
But a high one is a MUCH larger threat IMO than it used to be. Plus it seems to take a lot more damage to put one down.

Offline Citabria

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2001, 01:49:00 AM »
dont use combat trim in the p38.

trust me ive been around the block in the p38 a few times  :)
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Am0n

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2001, 07:02:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bruce:
what does combat trim do????   :confused:    :confused:    :confused:    :confused:    :confused:    :confused:    :confused:

Read up the post some, lephturn explains it.

Offline SKurj

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P38 Combat Trim Suicide Device?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »
mmmm +) a slow 38 is dead vs any slow Yak, pilots being equal of course.  The Yak will outturn it, out accelerate it, outclimb it, outroll it...


SKurj