Author Topic: Roman Catholics not Christians?  (Read 2012 times)

Offline Aubrey

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2005, 05:18:15 PM »
There were 4 crusades. The last two really did not count though. the 3rd only made it as far as Insatnbul (constantinople).

They must ahve got tired of riding and decided to just sack that place instead.

The 4th was the "Children's Crusade" It never made it out of France for the most part.


I may be off on the numbers I will check when I get home.


The Orthodox church is the off shoot of eastern christianity and Catholic is the western  as defined by the guys who ran it for the arms of the Roman Empire. Basically it was politics and distance that defined the differances of the two sects

Heh the way to get folks to follow you at that time was to declare them pagan. As the guy said above I do not think there are seperate lines for different sects.

Some would even go as far to say that the two sects were dewfined by the quality of the coinage of both parts of the empire. I however do not ascribe to that view

Offline patrone

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2005, 05:49:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
A christian is anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Doesnt matter what church they belong to as long as they follow the teachings of Christ they can be considered a Christian.

So yes, Catholics are christians and so are Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans etc.


What about jehova witness? I am asking you, Elfie-knower of it all: Is this considered Christans teaching?

Offline wombatt

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2005, 05:53:54 PM »
Not 100% sure but I believe the definition of Christian is to be Christ like.
So If a person worships christ then he is christian.

No matter what church he does or does not attend.

Offline RedTop

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2005, 05:59:01 PM »
Original Member and Former C.O. 71 sqd. RAF Eagles

Offline Thrawn

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2005, 06:21:51 PM »
The terms  "Roman Catholic" and "Catholic" are not synonomous.


Edit: (synononononmous sp?)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 06:26:46 PM by Thrawn »

Offline Raubvogel

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2005, 06:46:56 PM »
I'm a recovering Catholic.

Offline Gunslinger

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Re: hAWKLORE,
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2005, 10:50:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rshubert
They'e all Christian if they follow Christ, and acknowledge his divinity.  The Bible says that salvation is dependant upon belief.  The rest of it--all the different sects, including Catholicism--is Man's attempt to understand that which is so far beyond our ability to perceive that we haven't a chance.

That's the beauty and the hunger of it.  We want to understand, but cannot.  So we build up human institutions to try to figure it out.  They are human, and therefore imperfect.  But remember, if you are a Christian, it is your faith that saves you.  The rest is window dressing.

By the way, I am a practicing Catholic, just in case anybody wants to know...


Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
A christian is anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Doesnt matter what church they belong to as long as they follow the teachings of Christ they can be considered a Christian.

So yes, Catholics are christians and so are Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans etc.


DING DING DING DING

FInally somone who actually gets it.  You can throw words and labels around all you want but in all actuality the difference is quite simple and not many grasp it.

Religion in what ever form is a ideal created by MAN to be closer to god.

Christ is MAN created by GOD to be closer to MAN.  It's our faith in this that overshadows any "religion".  That is what it means to be a christian.....doesnt matter what rituals, proticals, or ceremonys ect. that you follow it all boils down to man JC!  The only perfect person to suffer and die for an imperfect world so we may be absolved of our sins.

EDIT:

In addition this may shed some light as well.

Quote
Roman Catholic Church
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The Roman Catholic Church (the term given as the title of this article) is most often spoken of simply as the "Catholic Church". Though the latter term has other meanings (for which, see Catholicism), it is generally used in this article, for the sake of brevity and to avoid confusion with the Latin Rite component of this worldwide body of Christians of East and West in full communion with the Pope. In fact, some give the first of these two terms ("Roman Catholic Church") an even narrower meaning: they link it with the Roman liturgical rite, one of several liturgical rites used by the Latin Rite or Latin particular Church, and accordingly consider that the term "Roman Catholic Church" is a misnomer when applied to the whole Church in full communion with the Bishop of Rome. The relationship between the Catholic Church and the Western or Latin and the Eastern Churches within it is dealt with below.

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on the Church Lumen Gentium, 8,[1]  (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html) declared that “the sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic” has a concrete realization (the Latin term is “subsistit”) "in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him". By "successor of Peter" is meant the Pope.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 10:54:47 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline boxboy28

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2005, 11:24:03 PM »
HAWKLORE i hate reading you ingorant posts but i thought you might have a good topic this time but yet again you are ill informed............home schooled or not! you schooling is obviously CATHOLIC (miss spelled on purpose) and its is biased and ignorant!



i want to say .........sooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo much because this kid needs it!  he needs to develope a mind of his own and not that of his parents!

LIP BIT and watching..................... ........


Christ, Allaha Jahway(SP) , Krishna, Budda, ....etc    maybe they are all the same god coming down in a form that the people they are coming to can Accept!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 11:26:58 PM by boxboy28 »
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2005, 12:16:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by boxboy28
i want to say .........sooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo much because this kid needs it!  he needs to develope a mind of his own and not that of his parents!

LIP BIT and watching..................... ........


Christ, Allaha Jahway(SP) , Krishna, Budda, ....etc    maybe they are all the same god coming down in a form that the people they are coming to can Accept!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WWJCD?

Would Jesus use so many repeated characters and punctuation marks?
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Offline hblair

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2005, 12:27:21 AM »
I'm going to drop a stink bomb on this thread and make some people uncomfortable.

Quote
A christian is anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Doesnt matter what church they belong to as long as they follow the teachings of Christ they can be considered a Christian.

So yes, Catholics are christians and so are Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans etc.


When I read things like above and hear people preach that "we can believe what we want, worship how we want, we're all going to heaven", well, I ask myself, how does this jive with the Bible? Seeings how the Bible is the inspired written word of God (if we claim to be a christian)

When I go to the scripture and see what Jesus teachings are, and the Apostles teachings are, I find a whole different way of thinking. ephesians 4:4 speaks of one church, one belief, one baptism. Well, ok, the "one belief" bit is talking about all the "denominations" (read divisions) right? well, what about 1 corinthians 1:10-13 ? Is paul ok with the church at corinth having divisions in itself? In verse 12 he points out that some were saying they were of paul, others of cephas, etc. Then he asks is Christ divided. Kinda sounds like "denominations" eh ?

This is ont a popular thing to bring up to believers because the denomination system is just second nature here 2000 years later. but if you're a student of the book you see that the apostles worked hard to be sure that the church kept the same doctrine. "You believe what you believe and I'll do my thing and we'll meet in heaven together!" was corrected real fast by Paul.

romans 16:16-18 tells us what the church was called back then and then tells us what to do with division and those causing it. Seems harsh by todays standard huh?

Some say denominations arent divisions? Well, then let the catholic priest come to the baptist church and sprinkle some babies. That wouldn't go over well? why? What about the church of God preacher go to mass and heal some people? that wouldn't go over well? why? they believe different things? why is that? doctrines of men maybe?

Still not convinced that denominations are all mans idea? Where is any denomination mentioned in the Bible? Now we know that the church is mentioned in the Bible. It is called "the church of our God", the "church of Christ", all names referring to deity. Nothing refering to methods or baptists etc. why is that?

There are several instances of people obeying the gospel and being added to "the church" in the new testament. Nobody was voted in. Acts 2: 47 tells of a different way they were added. It's good enough for me.

It's late and I gotta hit the sack, but look at john 17 from about verse 20 to the end of the chapter. Think of the setting. Jesus is in the garden praying to the father, he's going through the anguish of knowing whats gonna happen the next day, but what is he thinking about? the Apostles and those who will believe "through their word". How many times does he say he wants believers to be "one"? What's he trying to say?


So, the point of my post is denominations are mans invention. They were never meant to be.
All you need is a bible and an open mind and you will find the truth.
I am a member of the church of Christ. the one instituted in acts 2. I was also added to the church, not voted in, another one of mans inventions.
The church originated in Acts 2 and has been around for 2000 years. Whenever the word hits fertile soil, a member is soon added.

Offline Dinger

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2005, 05:36:07 AM »
Man, where to start with all this?
clearly many of you need to get your facts straight, so here they are:

First off, Hawklore, your history teacher is an ignorant buffoon, and you'd probably benefit from not paying attention to her idiotic, presentistic, small-minded, ahistorical and fundamentalist-faith-based lack of vision of the past. Period.

A basic rule when dealing with cultures, institutions and movements, both present and past, is that --as far as possible (linguistically and evidentially) --you refer to them what they choose to call themselves. If you need to make divisions on top of that, on top of that, you adapt as neutral terms as possible.
There are plenty of exceptions and side cases to this, but if you've got a group that asserts to be X, all their sources point unequivocally to them considering themselves X, and all non-X contemporaries refer to them as X, then you call them X. And if you say they're non-X, well you better have a damn good historical argument.
"They don't think like I do" is not a good historical argument. Nor is the variation at hand here: "The definition of Christianity is one I hold on faith. Therefore, everybody who doesn't adhere to my definition, isn't Christian."  As an historian, I don't give a flying **** what your faith is; you are explaining the past in terms that are supposed to be comprehensible regardless of faith. Faith is not a valid historical source. You can use it in any number of theological applications, but introducing it into history is a methodological error equivalent to using a child's drawing of a horsie in geometry to prove that the sum of the interior angles of a triangle is equal to two right angles. That child's drawing has value and interest, but not for geometry. The same for propositions held on faith -- they're great for all kinds of things, but not for history.

Okay, now to the rest of the mess:
What we call the "Catholic Church" or "Roman Catholic Church" claims to be the universal (hence Catholic) Christian church, and traces a continuous tradition all the way back to Peter, the Apostles and Jesus.
Orthodoxy has the same roots, and the split between them was originally geographical, following the split in the Roman Empire between the Western Empire (Rome, then Ravenna) and the East (Constantinople).
There are some major sticking points between east and west, such as the West's introduction of the phrase "and the Son" concerning the procession of the Holy Spirit in the Niceo-Constantinopolitan creed (just look up "filioque"). There's also the increasing insistence, from the late eleventh century on, on the part of the Bishop of Rome (aka the Pope) that he be recognized as the human leader of the Christian Church in virtue of being Saint Peter's successor. This idea was never fully accepted in the West (and even today the pope still doesn't wield the power over Catholics that he claims to), and in the East, was ill-received indeed.  Nevertheless, in spite of many Orthodox claims, there were several attempts at union between the Orthodox and Catholic churches, and between the Armenian and Catholic churches. And in some places, they succeeded for a while. Heck, I've got tons of medieval latin theological texts on my desk that claim that Orthodox Christians are basically "Greek Rite Catholics".

So basically, the Catholics are Christians, and trace their history all the way back to Jesus. The same can be said for the Orthodox and Armenian churches. And yeah, the Copts and the Nestorians probably too.

Whether you consider Catholics "True Christians holding the one true faith" is your own affair and has nothing to do with history.


Now, the Crusades:

Quote

There were 4 crusades. The last two really did not count though. the 3rd only made it as far as Insatnbul (constantinople).

They must ahve got tired of riding and decided to just sack that place instead.

The 4th was the "Children's Crusade" It never made it out of France for the most part.

No offense, but if you're gonna talk out of your prettythang, use a toilet.
"Crusader" as a term (crucesignatus) first appears only in the early thirteenth century, around the time of what we refer to as the Fourth Crusade. By far, the most impressive and most successful crusade was the first, which left Western Europe in 1096 and resulted in the capture and occupation of a good deal of what is now Lebanon and Israel, including the sack and capture of Jerusalem in 1099. The concept of Crusade hadn't gelled -- basically the First Crusade set the model for later expeditions. Effectively, Crusades became armed pilgrimages for which those who undertook them were promised full indulgence of their sins (another specifically Latin Christian, aka Catholic, invention was Purgatory). After the First Crusade, there were many armed trips to the Holy Land, taken by individuals and small groups, but the next "general passage" occurred around 1147, was more or less a disaster with Louis VII and his knights wandering around Anatolia looking for a fight, and is called the Second Crusade. The Third Crusade, 1189 featured the Holy Roman Emperor, Frederick Barbarossa, leading his contingent to the Meander before drowning in 1190, and Philippe II Augustus and Richard the Lionhearted combining for the capture of Acre. The Fourth Crusade was an unmitigated disaster: death and politics back in France screwed thingsup from the start; the crusaders were heavily in debt to the Venetians (who'd built a bunch of ships for them), one of the leaders was married to the daughter of an emperor whose brother deposed him, threw him in jail, and gouged his eyes out. So they ended up sacking Constantinople (it wasn't called Istanbul until 1917), and establishing a latin empire there, taht lasted fifty years and still pisses off the Greeks today.
From then on, crusades were called for all kinds of things -- against heretics, in  Spain, small ones, large ones, the oft-mentioned "Children's Crusade" (for which the evidence is pretty scanty), whatever seemed appropriate.

Anyway, there's plenty of information on the internet about this stuff. Some of it is even accurate.

Offline lasersailor184

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2005, 05:39:52 AM »
Not quite on about the Crusades.


The was call for a crusade after jerusalum was taken by the muslims.  So they started organizing armies to send.  HOWEVER, some guy got really excited and just left to take Jerusalum, gathering people along the way.  These people were not soldiers, not even fighters.

Those that made it to Jerusalum bounced off the muslims like flies.

Finally the real crusade left.  They were not doing too well until finally a Bishop heard a message from god saying when to specifically attack and what to do.  It worked.  They had control of Jerusalum again.

The third one was a Children's crusade.  A kid heard a message from god and left for Jerusalum gathering children (and a few adults) along the way.  Most didn't survive nature, I think they dispersed and settled around Northern Italy.

The fourth one was full of Ill-funded soldiers.  They had no way to pay for the trip at all.  So some of the Ship owners said they would take them to Jerusalum if they would help to take a port on Africa.  They did.  Then the ship owners asked them to take somewhere else.  They did.  The whole mission petered out from them doing mercanary work.  They never got t Jerusalum.

The fifth was armies sent by King Richard (of england) and the king of France to take Jerusalum.  Along the trip, the big leader from France drowned in a stream, but the mission continued.  They were successful, but many people died.

The sixth was another Children's Crusade.  A kid heard a message from God and led children to Jerusalum.  Many died just from Nature.  But they had no way to get across the sea to Israel.  So many poor ship owners took pity on them and carted them across.  A good portion of the ships sank.  Those that did make it to Jerusalum were assimilated instead of slaughtered (I believe).
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Offline rpm

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2005, 05:47:24 AM »

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
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Offline Heiliger

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2005, 05:54:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger
Man, where to start with all this?


Good, glad I'm not the only one.  :D

Offline Dinger

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Roman Catholics not Christians?
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2005, 05:55:34 AM »
ls184, see my post, or come see me after class.
:D