Abu Ghraib 'Ringleader?

[Crumpp]

Not every foriegn volunteer in the Waffen-SS actively participated in the Holocaust or even joined for that purpose, and to suggest every member of the german armed forces was complicit (even the Waffen-SS) is rather naive.

Hardly.  We all have a choice.  Do I join the resistance?  Or do I join these Nazi's cause it looks like they are going to win?

Crumpp

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Hardly.  We all have a choice.  Do I join the resistance?  Or do I join these Nazi's cause it looks like they are going to win?

Crumpp

A tad simplistic don't you think?

 Tronsky

[Staga]

Originally posted by Crumpp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Improved_relations_with_Nazi_Germany

 

Finland most certainly did participate in the Holocaust and willingly.  They were a full and willing partner of the Nazi's.

Finland even had their own SS Battalion.

http://www.feldgrau.com/finland.html

I would say you need to study your own history.  

Crumpp

Crumpp you are making a fool of yourself; You really should read more about Finnish SS troops and what was the story behind them.
Tip: They were also known as pledge battaillon in here; Hitler demanded that Finns had to send troops to fight in SS and in barter we got military equipments, food and ammunitions.

I would say you need to study your own history.

I hope you understand how funny that sounds from your mouth; You think you know what happened in here and are willing to spread your assumptions as facts... I'd say it's you who should study some history.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Crumpp


He is correct Straffo.  

Finland was an AXIS nation in WWII fully supporting the Nazi's and their ideals.

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html

Depend of the time frame , you are speaking of the Continuation War when I'm thinking of the Winter war.

What do you mean by "supporting their ideal" ?
You mean they sided with the German wich is right and IMO just realpolitik
Or do you mean they applied the nazi doctrine in Finland wich is false ?

Originally posted by Crumpp
Hardly.  We all have a choice.  Do I join the resistance?  Or do I join these Nazi's cause it looks like they are going to win?

Crumpp

Thinking of the Alsacians I can't agree with this assertion.

[Jackal1]

Prisoner abuse my aching ass.
  Most of what they have come up with so far is nearly laughable. Boot camp and advance training for our troops is more "tortuous" than what has been brought to life.
  It`s war folks. These guys being "humiliated" and "embarrased" had one job and one job only before becoming prisoners. That job was to kill as many U.S. troops as possible.
  Maybe we should take a stance of "no quarter" with the enemy. It would certainly solve a lot of problems.
  IMHO, get the media out of the military when it comes to things like this and let the military do it`s job.
  War is a bloody, dirty business. Our troops have enough to worry about when they enter a war zone without having to worry about some fat, jerkoff, money grubbing exec in a nice warm media office sipping scotch and trying to figure out how to put a spin on stories to milk as much as possible from the public.

[Saintaw]

Wow, so little words, so many idiots.

[Staga]

Crumpp is writing a book? I hope he writes from something he knows better than WW2 history

[Jackal1]

Another note on the "prisoner abuse" BS.
  Do you have any idea how slippery the footwear was that  the VC wore?
  Rumor has it  that if you were trying to get info from a group of captured VC, and they were being totaly uncooperative, a little fresh air would usualy do the trick. Take 2, 3 or more on a little refreshing ride in a chopper. When questions were failed to be answered while in the air and one of them "slipped" and fell out it usualy made the remainder quite chatty.
  War is hell , aint it?

[Crumpp]

9.May At 0000 the German capitulation is officially declared.  This is the first time that the Germans surrender with all forces still intact.  The number of Germans in Norway is about 375 000.

It took them so long to surrender because the Germans must have been hoping for refuge!!

No it was an American tooting his country's own horn.

Talk about selective data!!

Gscholtz says:
*ROFL* Cobra you unimaginable twit. Norway was fighting the Germans one and a half years before the USA ... oh yes, that's right; the United States of America was neutral until December 11th 1941 when Germany declared war on you. I guess you didn't care about the mass killings of Jews huh? Moron!

We now know that is a gross misrepresentation of Norway's involvement in WWII.

I've decided against buying your upcoming Fw190 book. With your level of research and lack of integrity I don't think it will be worth a damn.

Not relevant and I am not interested if you buy it or not.

You really should read more about Finnish SS troops and what was the story behind them.

Yeah they sat around, toasted marshmallows, and sang edelweiss.  Listen to yourselves!   What is the next excuse and apologist statement going to be??

Or do you mean they applied the nazi doctrine in Finland wich is false ?

They did apply Nazi doctrine in Finland Straffo.  Look down the page at the breakdown of jews killed by country in paragraph 4:

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/print.asp

This table comes from this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/055334532X/002-8286239-7536836?v=glance

Now Finland's Jewish population is unknown so it's hard to tell a percentage.  However looking at Norway that only managed to destroy 1800 Jews, a mere 50 percent of their Jewish population.  

It's not a large leap of logic to say Finland turned a large percentage of its Jewish population to the death camps.

Why?  They supported the Nazi's and played politics.

Crumpp

[Staga]

Originally posted by Crumpp

Now Finland's Jewish population is unknown so it's hard to tell a percentage.  However looking at Norway that only managed to destroy 1800 Jews, a mere 50 percent of their Jewish population.  

It's not a large leap of logic to say Finland turned a large percentage of its Jewish population to the death camps.

Why?  They supported the Nazi's and played politics.

Crumpp

The Head Heeb World Tour: Northern Europe

Finland is a country very dear to my heart, both because of the warm welcome I was given during my 1997 visit and because of Finland's protection of its Jewish population during the Second World War. Finland was attacked by Stalin in 1939, which put it on the Axis side of the war by default; faced with the choice between allying with Hitler or being conquered by Stalin, the Finns can hardly be blamed for choosing Hitler. All the same, Finland never became a Nazi satellite; it remained a democracy through the war, and Jews continued to have all the rights of Finnish citizens. Some, in fact, served in the army alongside German soldiers:

    The comradeship-in-arms with Germany during the Continuation War did not alter the status of Jews in Finland or in its army. Jewish citizens served in the Finnish army, in women's voluntary defence services and in other duties alongside other Finns. The same was true with regard to all the ethnic minorities, Tatars, Russians, Gipsies, Lapps, without differentiation.

    In a quite unique photo, in a snowy forest there is a millboard tent with an iron heating stove, the chimney on the left-hand side - and a number of soldiers are posing outside the tent. The tent is a field synagogue, "Scholka's shul", set up for the Jewish soldiers at the front beside the River Svir in Eastern Karelia. A field synagogue with a Torah Scroll was, no doubt, a very exceptional event in an Army fighting on the German side during the War.

    Several Jewish soldiers were cited for bravery in action; a number of them served as company commanders and one as a captain and battalion commander; Jewish army doctors were promoted to the same officer ranks as their colleagues, inclusive of ranks of major.

    During the two wars, 23 Finnish Jews were killed in action. As a tribute to their memory, their names are published annually in the Jewish Calendar of the Bicur Cholim Society in Helsinki.
I met a number of Jewish war veterans in Helsinki and Turku in 1997, in the course of researching an article I never wrote. One of them, an army nurse, was awarded the Iron Cross for her work in a German field hospital; many others had surreal stories of friendships with German soldiers who would likely have killed them under other circumstances. Throughout the war, the Helsinki synagogue was down the street from the German army headquarters - and, as Jewish veteran Harry Matso told me, the only difference between then and now is that in those days, the synagogue didn't need a security guard.

The Jews of Finland particularly revere Carl Gustav Mannerheim, who led the Finnish armies through the war and briefly served as President. The story goes that Hitler demanded that the Finnish Jews be deported, and that Mannerheim answered "over my dead body." The story has been called into question, but every Finnish Jew I met swore to it, and it would be entirely in character for Mannerheim. What is certain is that on December 6, 1944, Mannerheim became the first Finnish head of state to visit the Helsinki synagogue and thank the Jewish community for its contribution to the war effort, and that every Jew in Finland considers him a great man.

http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/014825.html

1939 Jewish population of Finland was ~1700; from these 260 was called to arms and ~200 of them served at the front; suffering 8% losses in the war.

Jewish veteran seems to be characteristic: "The Winter War gave us a deeper consciousness of being Finnish and of belonging to Finland more than any earlier period in our history."

Crumpp;
Did you knew that Finnish Jew even got an Cross of Iron in WW2?

You're uneducated; arrogant idiot without any knowledge or even will to search information; How can you think about writing a book?

[straffo]

Originally posted by Crumpp
They did apply Nazi doctrine in Finland Straffo.  Look down the page at the breakdown of jews killed by country in paragraph 4:

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/print.asp

This table comes from this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/055334532X/002-8286239-7536836?v=glance

Now Finland's Jewish population is unknown so it's hard to tell a percentage.  However looking at Norway that only managed to destroy 1800 Jews, a mere 50 percent of their Jewish population.  

It's not a large leap of logic to say Finland turned a large percentage of its Jewish population to the death camps.

Why?  They supported the Nazi's and played politics.

Crumpp

I don't understand how with a lack of data you can have such a conclusion.

The only conclusion acceptable is IMO : it's undetermined.
Any other is just BS.

Why instead of using Norway don't you use Sweden to make a comparaison ?

It's as fair as it's also a nordic country not having been occuped by Germany ... like Finland.

[patrone]

This guy "crumpp" is writting a book about FW 190??

I need to spread this on the other flightboards to warn them.

Better up, I will send them here to read this thread.

Is it a comic book?

[airguard]

Originally posted by Cobra412
Lets see Finland. Axis nation during WWII.  Staga you must have condoned the mass killing of Jews then huh?  Yep you have a feet to stand on.  You and your countries opinions can go sit their arses down now.

Lets see Norway.  Neutral state during WWII.  Yep must have really gave a watermelon about the mass killings of Jews too.  Didn't have the balls then to stand up for what they supposedly really believe in.  You can do the same as Finland now.

I'm seeing a very distinctive trend here.  Where exactly would your countries stand if another Hitler rose to power?  Oh that's right jump on the band wagon of the enemy or turn a blind eye and claim neutrality.  Yep I'm sure your a real asset to the UN and all of it's allies.  

Read your history over again MR cobra. You know nothing about what norway suffered under WW2.

Yes we started as neutral, but was drawn in big time.
And we fought back big time, holding about 300000 german soldiers/airforcecrews in there for you to get the invasjon going.

So insulting my granpa like this, I for sure dont like he was one of the guys holding the German army back for 2 months. (wich was more weeks/months of most of Europe)

Alot of norwegians was killed in cases like the in the Rukjan heavywater assult, then most of the German battleships was sunk in Norway also and it costed lots of Norwegians lifes.

All of the northern part (Finnmark) was burnded down to the ground by the Germans, (no suffer) ?

Alot of people was shot down or tortured by Germans (no suffer)?

You Cobra is the looser here. read your books over you ignorant looser.

PS! I cant really belive somone is dumb enough to post without chekcing facts first, dohhhhhhhhhhhhh
and least but not last WE WAS NOT NEUTRAL WE DID FIGHT UNTIL WE LOST ( and after the surrender too, well most of the norwegians)

[Maverick]

Nice hijack. Duck the original threads subject with an irrelevant arguement about a conflict over 50 years before. That way you don't have to discuss the pertinant subject.

[patrone]

Originally posted by straffo

Why instead of using Norway don't you use Sweden to make a comparaison ?

Shhhhh....................Str affo!!!

Dont mention to him that the "neutral" Sweden sat on its fat ***
during the whole WWII selling ore/ballbearings to both sides.

To tell you the truth, I am very grateful to our goverment during that time: They managed to keep us out of it. We wouldŽnt been able to defend ourselfs, really.