Lets get this straight...

[doobs]

my mistake on the day part, was blown away by 12000+ still dude 10 a day every day is an awful lot.

see goob, it got hijacked but by me.

[mars01]

For the guys that seriously want to discuss this in hopes for better game play, then I will add my 2 cents.

Goob that list is good, but it takes a keener sense to understand where the battle is and at what point things need to be hit.

DO

1. Establish air cover.
2. Knock out the VH.
3. Destroy all AAA, don't forget those manned acks!
4. Knock down the town.
5. Call in the troops.

DO NOT

1. Destroy the FH or BH.
2. Pork the fuel.
3. Pork the ord.
4. Pork the troops.

Your list is the perfect base capture.  Taking a field with it's full capacity to wage against the enme.  In AHI this was and easy recipe to make.

Now with change in down times, the fuel mult, and the bigger city this objective is a much more challenging prospect and reward.

So many base captures go through stages, especially ones that just start to happen without any formal leadership or organization.  The stages are what many people miss and don't get about AHII which is this new level of complexity that has been nicely added to the game play.

For example...

Many base captures start out as base defense.  Then as the defense grows it pushes back the offense to where they are now in defense.  It is at this point that two things can happen.

1) The fighters will have enough fuel and ammo to cap
2) They will have to rtb, thus giving the enemy a chance to
reupp.  

Lets look at number 2.  The fighters will have to rtb, thus giving the enemy a chance to reupp.  

At this point, you are left without adequate CAP by all means drop the hangers.  Give your cap time to get rearmed and reorganized.  At the same time the Attack guys should be switching over to attack rolls and heading back just behind the fighters.

Once the cap has been established, it seems the wise choice would be to concentrate on the VH and City.  I lost count of the number of times I have seen goons make it to the city only to get killed 5 mins on station because it was still up.

I think the trick to all of this, might be to look at dropping the Fighter hangers as a last resort.  If you start out this way, you might first take into consideration what kind of Cap is there, is it adequate?  If so then hit the primary target the VH and then the  secondary target the city.

Many times though, a decent defense is put up and the fight may go back and forth creating a great melee that provides hours of fun and fighting.  This is the part of the game I really enjoy when the AtoA fights are really raging.  

For discussion sake lets classify the stages as follows,

Furballing - The melee between two fields, neither getting close enough to e3stablish a cap and bombers not able to get into drop the Fighter Hangers.
Suppression - dropping the FHrs or establishing a CAP.  The two don't go together, unless you like flying around not killing planes.  But they do both have their place, time and effectiveness.
Preparation - Dropping the VH, Ack and City.
Domination - Dropping the troops and taking over.

The the ebb and flow between Furballing, Suppression and Preparation are where the bases are won and lost, where game play can thrive or 5uck.

Honestly this game is only as good as the people that are playing it.  If everyone is out for themselves or aimlessly dropping bombs then we get the status quo.

If people are just doing things cause they are there to do, while that can't be stopped, it will have an affect on someone’s game and the overall game play.

Now granted this is the Holy Grail of skill and cooperation in the MA.  But I have seen dummer things happen.

Also yes there are many other ways to play this game, but this view tries to get all facets of the game involved.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by g00b
Flyboy
Wotan
LePaul

Thanks for adding absolutely nothing to this thread. You all are apparently against any form of organization or strategy. Sucks to be on your team. I'd guess you down FH's for no good reason except to be contrary and piss your teamies off. More power to you.

g00b

oops sry black sheep, my bad

LOL!

Oh my word, he has Shatner Syndrome!  He thinks the world revolves around himself!  

Dude...step AWAY from the monitor and r-e-l-a-x  

Wow.  

Heck I just up buffs and hunt down CVs, what the rest of you guys do is your business!  (But by all means, when you have 2 fleets, YES, steer them into each other so my work is that much easier!)

[doobs]

Mars

I think that is the best post I ever read on the subject,
 ya should start your own thread with that.
 and have it stickified.

[SFCHONDO]

Mars, Very well said and thought out. Nice post.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by g00b

Seriously, read those posts and tell me there was any sort of rational, logical discussion going on.
 

Expressing an opposing viewpoint is perfectly rational. The viewpoint that your post is predicated on a flawed premise seems well within your original post which asked for comment.

-Sik

[SlapShot]

Goob Ignore the vulchers or so called "furballers" comments. They make their living of us land grabber types and comtribute NOTHING constructive to anything we like to do.

I do agree that "furballers" add nothing constructive to what the "land grabbers" do, but would love to see your reasons for why "furballers" make their living off "us land grabbers".

As far as the topic of this thread ... Goob demonstrates a very good plan ... and Mars' input is also right on (its the MAW training).

[Stang]

If the land grabbers didn't have furballers at their disposal they'd never be able to take a field that had a decent defense... therefore they'd never win the war and collect those holy 20 perks and get to thump their chests about beating up on a country that had half the people flying that they did.

[mars01]

(its the MAW training).

BINGO!!!!

Thanks Doobs, SFC.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Just a quick comment.  Most of the time I could never consider myself a "furballer" because I lack the SA skills to stay alive long in that kind of environment (ironically enough).  It's coming back to me, but its slow going past a certain point.  I much prefer 1 on 1, or even 2 on 1.  But since I often hunt the fringes of big furballs looking for victi............errrr fights, I suppose you could put me in the "furball" camp.

That doesnt mean I dont jump in to help capture bases.  I dont like having my bases taken out from under me any more than the next guy, and in my mind the best defense is a good offense.  

So wearing my "landgrabber" hat, I see alot to like in g00b's post.  Its organized, efficient, lays out what you should and should not do for people who might otherwise not have a clue.  The post from mars also makes alot of sense, and simply helps further define what g00b started.

Putting on the "furballer" hat, my first impression is "who the f*** does this guy think he is?"  I'm always glad to help out and play CAP on an enemy base whilst you bomb it into oblivion, but not all day.  Drop the darn FH and get it over with so you dont need 20 thousand people flying over the base for the next half hour while you try to get goons in.  And who made you God to decide my fun comes from vulching?  You expect a Horde to help you take every base, no wonder the ENY limiter is kicking in.  Short-sighted plans like this for quickie base grabs make me realize common sense isnt so common after all.

So there's my split personality view.  I really think if you went for a middle road you would make alot more people happy and get alot more active participation and less grumbling.  But then that may not be your goal.  Just my observations.

[mars01]

Your right Star, this is far from a perfect world for the furballer.

But then this thread didn't really start out as a how do we make better furballs, it was how do we attack a base.

My example was simply from watching good furballs between two bases shift from guys fighting other guys, to making headway in taking the base.

Now in my example the furballing guys actually help take the base by pushing the enemy back to their field. At this point the furballer will expect to take his earned seat at the table and start to enjoy a nice plate of Vulch.

So imagine if you will, you just defended your base from attack, pushed the enemy back to their base and are about to claim your prize (some good clean earned vulches), and guys are upping.
Now in come the guys that drop the FHrs thus denying the furballer the spoils of a great defense turned offense.

Now up to this point 1/26/05, I don't think this was the intention of the FH killers, they just think they are doing their part to win the war and they are, but they are not thinking about who they are stepping on in their rash race to kill the hangers.

A perfect example of this was the capture of 222 last night around 1:00am EST. I came in around 12:30. There was a raging fight between the two fields. Some great furballing. A squaddy of mine said it was going on for a couple of hours. Eventually the 222 defense waned enough to the point where the rest of the country started showing up and the Furball quickly turned into a base capture.  Then as the CAP was setting up over the field those dread words to a furballer were spoken…  “Last Fighter Hangers Down.”  Much to the chagrin of the furballers.

Now could the 222 capture guys have left the hangers up, I think so it was at least 5 to 8 mins before the goon had gotten there and there were plenty of guys to CAP at this point, but no one was thinking Hangers Last. Granted it was a zone base and the attackers were well organized and had the VH and City down with troops on the way before the hangers came back up so I can't get mad at good execution and a well timed base capture. But they could have left the furballers finish their part by providing CAP and allow them to enjoy their spoils. Thus the FHrs last mentality would have afforded this.


But yes what does any of this do for the furballer? It at least considers their involvement in the attack scenario and points out where the Base Capture guys are rubbing the Furballers the wrong way and creating the frustration we see some times on Range and chan 200.

Funny enough, after this fight was squashed there really wasn't any thing materializing to replace it unfortunately. The strat guys just moved on to another base while we were left with no furball to move to.  

So six of us ended up going into the DA for a bunch of 3vs3, if we had 4Vs4 we could have done 2vs2 with tail gunners, that would have been a blast, but we didn't get to it. I guess my point here is, with the current strat game and the MA weighted towards base capture the furballers will always have to feed off of the scraps the MA provides, so maps with closer bases, countries with intelligent bombing strategies and guys thinking before dropping can actually increase the fun for everyone, while still accomplishing their goals as well.

[killnu]

great posts mars.

"last flight hanger down"...at that point, i pack up my things and move along to next big red dot on map.  i hate those words.  bah.

[LYNX]

I do agree that "furballers" add nothing constructive to what the "land grabbers" do, but would love to see your reasons for why "furballers" make their living off "us land grabbers".

I really ment to say " Add nothing constructive to the post" but none the less, the way it's worded stands true.

Most furballers work alone and fly to where the so called "action" is.  Typically they see 5+ guys headed to an enemy field so they eventually tag along.  (They won't bother to notice if it's a noe raid)  The opposing fuballers see the DAR BAR..  " got to be incoming action"!  Our side see's more guys headed to said field and more and more go to the action.  opposing side see's more incoming a bigger DAR BAR...etc etc.  Untill 1 big furball errupts or termed another way a "Cluster ****".  

The ONLY time you will ever see an instant furball break out is when it's a brand new map.  I'll guarranty that the 2 closist opposing fields is where that fight will be.

If they earnt their own living you would read statements
like  "I'm starting a furball at base #"  or " furball mission posted"


LYNX.....~SOB~

[StarOfAfrica2]

Nice post mars.  Note that previously I was not arguing against either you or g00b, just trying to present the alternate point of view.  

That said, I dont think everyone looks at vulching, even in the scenario you described, as their "reward", or anything remotely like it.  At least I dont.  If you are trying to take a base and want to leave the FH up for whatever reason, fine.  I'll  help, and I'll vulch the f*** outta them while you bring in troops.  But I aint gonna do it forever.  Vulching isnt fun, its work.  CAP isnt fun, its work.  

Give me open sky between the bases, a small handful of red icons co-alt or lower, and a couple of guys to wing with.  I prefer to actively hunt my kills and work for them, I get much more satisfaction from them than I do from vulching some poor sap that had less chance of getting in the air than a quadraplegic has of scratching his nuts by himself.  

Oh, and just to add one bit of constructive comment in all this drivel of mine.  If you design the mission, and you dont want the FH's dropped, you better not only say so up front, you better be telling everyone on Range channel too.  Dont get mad if people dont follow your directives if you keep them to yourself.  That includes people who arent in your mission to take base X.  And while you may have reason from time to time to question the sanity and/or intelligence of some of the guys around you, if you ask politely they will usually follow your directives.  Start issuing orders to guys who arent even in the mission, some of them will do the opposite just to be a pain.

Again, just my $0.02.  And thats about what its worth too.  lol

[mars01]

Note that previously I was not arguing against either you or g00b, just trying to present the alternate point of view.

Thanks, rgr that I got that feeling.  

I'm glad you brought it up though, because I am primarily a furballer but from my time in the MAW I do understand and can and have, base captured with the best of them.   MAW.

If given a choice I would love to be able to log in and always find a big never ending hornets nest to join in and fight.

That said, I dont think everyone looks at vulching, even in the scenario you described, as their "reward", or anything remotely like it.

Nor do I...  but

As I see it, and as always this is only one view...

The hornets nests are few and far between, mainly because people are taking the bases which feed the melee.  So accepting that this will not change, nor should it, because the MA is not a dedicated furball arena (hint, hint) , then as furballers we have to reinvent ourselves and take advantage of the furballs the open up and hope to maximize their enjoyment so long as they last (which is completely dictated by the Base Cap guys).  

That is what led me to the Vulch as the natural progression from the Furball stage to the Supression stage.  There is always a bit of frustration on behalf of the furballers because it signals the end of the furball.  Now naturally for all those die hard guys, not that I have met any, they might turn around right there and not participate in CAP.  Me on the other hand, hell, I'm not going home unless I am outa ammo or fuel or sent home.  So if the furball ends up over the enemy base, yeah I am vulching their   tulips lol.  So with that in mind I do see the Vulch and CAP as the natural progression from Furball to Supression.


Now do I up into a furball with the intention of vulching?  No, I up with the intention of joining a good fight, but do I realize that the majority of furballs ( At least the ones I have been in) end up down the path I described in my first post.

Oh, and just to add one bit of constructive comment in all this drivel of mine. If you design the mission, and you dont want the FH's dropped, you better not only say so up front

Honestly the point of my posts have been to try and get people not to have to be told or to ask what they have to do, but to be able to approach a field, surmise the situation and make a judgement on what should be dropped, based on what I call FHrs Last Resort approach.

Again I don't expect everyone to accept this approach but if even a few furballs are extended or at least when the Furball swithces to Supression stage if one guy leaves the hangers up so that the fighter guys get to add their part by CAPing then it was worth it.