Gunnery again............

[LYNX]

Have you guys with rubber bullets checked your vid card and made sure vert sync in on by default?

[JB73]

Originally posted by LYNX
Have you guys with rubber bullets checked your vid card and made sure vert sync in on by default?

vsync on... it's not rubber bullets, im not getting hit sprites, just missing entirely

[Cobra412]

JB73 I think maybe what Mechanic is getting at is aiming inside your convergence.  With the latest ballistics changes done awhile back you have to make adjustments inside of your convergence window.

As an example I fly with all guns on my Mustang at 400 typically.  Anything at 400 and beyond I know I have to aim slightly high to get rounds on target.  Once I come inside of 400 though I have to start aiming nose low from 400 to approximately 200 out.  Once I'm inside 200 I can start bringing my sights nose high or level again once I'm practically riding up someones tail.  

The rounds now will not only converge from outside to inside but also will rise and drop through the convergence range.  As you come inside of your convergence the bullets arc will be higher than what your actual LOS is.  You'll have to adjust a few milliradians nose low because of the bullets flight path.  I've got a sample from a document someone posted in regards to the 190 A8s actual boresight settings.  Problem is I have nowhere to host it at.

[streetstang]

Dont feel bad Tilt.

My gunnery in AH1 was something like in the High 15% range at one point, that was the highest I've gone. I do feel AH1 gunnery was more point, click, boom though. Gunnery was much more easier to master back then.

AH2 Beta came out and I was spraying like a noob. And that was before the new icons came about. Once HT changed up the icons to what we have now.... Well things really went down hill.

Shots in Ah1 with the old icon distance counter that was I was taking at say... 450-400 Could now be 400-600 and you dont really know where your at as far as distance goes like you did in AH1. I know that I would adjust my lead acordingly often by watching the dist counter in AH1 tick down/up. Now I've gotten into the habbit of taking a quick look at the distance meter and try more now to judge the size of the plane in my view. The bigger it gets the closer it is. I guess this is what HT was sort of driving towards. A more realistic feel/look/traditional shot taking... Maybe not? I dont know but now how I shoot and lead a plane is realy based on the size of the AC in my view. The bigger the plane gets the less I lead and vise versa. But even then your still guessing.

I've just learned to live with the fact that my gunnery sucks now in AH2.

Edit: As far as the PC thing goes and it having any effect on gunnery. You would had to have the biggest POS system giving you sub 20frps/screen freezes/lockups you name it for it to really affect your gunnery.

For the longest time in AH1 I played on a system givng me 30-35frps. I decided to invest in a new system. My FR jumped up into 110+ frps range. My gunnery was unaffected by the system change. So I disagree (FOR THE MOST PART) on it playing any large role in gunnery.

[mechanic]

my convergence is usually at 400-450 for wing mounted guns btw, with regard to my post.

i think the most important thing is how well you know your plane, as others have said.


Cobra, send me the file to djhayze21@hotmail and ill post it for you if you like.

[Cobra412]

Thanks for hosting that picture Batfink.  I just sent the file.  It was scanned with Symantec with up to date virus definitions.  The convergence and harmonization information is from an actual document that somene here posted awhile back for the 190 A8 R1.  All I did was give each set of guns color and added some boxes for spread reference at certain ranges.

[mechanic]

no probs cobra, here it is.




also, here is something i posted a few months back. probably a load of crap but it hope it gives a good idea on lead shots and how your planes motion affects gunnery. i posted this in reply to someone asking how a plane hit him when it wasnt pointing directly at his plane. i think its almost accurate

Originally posted by mechanic
following up these posts and to explain Darkish's point on lead, i have drawn up a little estimational graph to explain how this could happen, not considering net lag.

please study this rudementary diagram i drew in paint

this is taken with a convergence setting of 300 yrds

the weapon cones are far more spread out than it really is but take into account shakes and control twitches and i think it shows an acurate depiction of possible bullet spreads.



essentially, the vast majority of planes have fixed guns which do NOT correspond with the planes angle of attack. the majority of cockpit views give a 10-15 degree elevation for the pilot's line of sight.

put simply, the plane fires above its ture course through the air.

if you also take into consideration the effect of a hard turn or climb/dive, the effects will include gravity, centrifugal force (sp?) and bullet drop.

So, a plane that is not pointing directly at you, can still hit you if all these factors are taken into consideration.

as the range increases above 200yrds, these weapon cones become more effected and less definite.

Now consider a pilot that is pulling back hard on the stick at the same time as opening fire


the weapons cone is drastically changed, meaning the bullet can hit you when the enemy plane is pointing way off.

Now also consider a plane that is pushing hard forward on the stick at the same time as shooting.



a lucky/skilled hit can often be put down to net lag, although it is most likely one hasnt estimated the enemy's line of sight as acurately as possible.

Note: these picture do not show weapon cone in a dive/climb, but actauly as the pilot pulls the stick and changes the a/c's center of gravity and AOA through the air.

these rough diagrams do not cover the equally improtant lateral forces that can be applied, but the rule works the same for any direction.

a skilled marksman will be able to judge these angles from 600-800 yrds, and this can cause alot of confusion to the opponent, who cannot concieve how the bullets hit him.

this aside, there is also the net lag issue, which can greatly affect things like traces, plane possition on rare occasions.

hope this helps, and i hope i havnt swung off the mark, these thoughts are only my own, not based on any documents.

S!

batfink

[Bunyip]

have a few  beveridges that usaully steadies my aim hehe
but it aint helping my typing skills!

[storch]

Originally posted by mechanic
no probs cobra, here it is.
also, here is something i posted a few months back. probably a load of crap but it hope it gives a good idea on lead shots and how your planes motion affects gunnery. i posted this in reply to someone asking how a plane hit him when it wasnt pointing directly at his plane. i think its almost accurate

Wow great graph!!  However now I'm totally confused.  You are showing the projectiles as having a parabolic trajectory.  Are the cannon then in fact mounted to point at a slight up angle?  If this is the case then it explains my poor gunnery to me.  I assumed that the cannon would be mounted level to the flight path of the airplane.  Is this where I'm going wrong with my gunnery?

[Zanth]

Originally posted by Golfer
There is one for the TA.

Control+tab enables friendly lock mode.  Hit tab until you get your target (just as you might with an enemy you're tracking) and it will have a little green crosshair.  That's where your pipper needs to be if you want to hit em.

Thanks this was what I was looking for, I am going to try this.

[Zanth]

Originally posted by debuman
The LCS (lead computng gunsite) is available in the off-line mode.  I use it quite frequently for practice.  (although I still need lots more practice).  I don't remember the steps for enabling it - if you do a search for LCS you should be able to find it just like I did.  But, It is available - I was just using it yesterday.

It puts little green +'s where the guns will hit depending on how many g's you're pulling.  Usually seperate one for guns and cannon.  It shows you how much lead you need from different angles, etc.  A very valuable practice tool for learning to compute lead.  Give it search - you'll be glad you did!

ah yes ty  

edit.

However this isnt a lead computing sight - this shows target solution on a plane.   What I was looking/wishing for is a sight that just tells you where your bullets are going to go at any given moment (we had one in Air Warrior)

[mechanic]

Originally posted by storch
Wow great graph!!  However now I'm totally confused.  You are showing the projectiles as having a parabolic trajectory.  Are the cannon then in fact mounted to point at a slight up angle?  If this is the case then it explains my poor gunnery to me.  I assumed that the cannon would be mounted level to the flight path of the airplane.  Is this where I'm going wrong with my gunnery?

look at the left hand scale, its in cm. its looks like its a large parabolla but ints exagerated on the graph.

but yes, this may be your problem

[JB73]

Originally posted by storch
Wow great graph!!  However now I'm totally confused.  You are showing the projectiles as having a parabolic trajectory.  Are the cannon then in fact mounted to point at a slight up angle?  If this is the case then it explains my poor gunnery to me.  I assumed that the cannon would be mounted level to the flight path of the airplane.  Is this where I'm going wrong with my gunnery?

yes cannons "lob" the round.

there has recently been a change to the ballistics by HTC.

for our example we will use a convergence of 300 yards.

in the past the rounds would start out low, reaching the apex of their arch at 300 yards, hitting in what should be the center of your gunsight (in a perfect straight level flight)

now the rounds start low, arch above the center of the gunsight, and fall hitting the center at the mentioned 300 yards.

if you set convergence to 500 yards, they would lob and come "down" to the center at 500 yards, and so on with whatever convergence setting you had.

this new way is more realistic than in the past, but makes for some interesting changes in the game

say your convergence is set to 600 yards, and you are chasing a plane flat on the deck. he is 250 yards in front of you, and you fire with the center of the gunsight right on him. theoretically your rounds will lob right over him, and you will miss.

this did happen in real life, and is the most accurate ballistic model we have had, but like i mentioned it is a recent change.

it was implemented here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134243&highlight=convergence

about 3 months ago

[Magoo]

I totally agree with the idea of bursting when your shooting at the bandit, as was mentined early on in this thread. This keeps your brain from transitioning from flying to shooting so you stay tracked on the target better. To set this behavior, try flying a Yak9-T. You know you only have 32 of those giant cannon shells, also known as flaming coconuts, so conservation is front and center in your mind (I'm not even gonna consider the single MG on the -T). Now you must get close - in RL all the good pilots stress this. Set your convergence for 200yds. See the bandit, kill the bandit. and when your not close but still want to shoot, burst the guns don't hold the trigger. Yes on snapshots the bastard will fly between the shells on occasion, but the finality of one hit makes it all worth it. Your gunnery will get better flying the Yak9-T because it has to. BTW, the cannon on that Yak has decent ballistics, not what you'd expect.

Having said all that, I'm also going to try something new to see if it helps my long range gunnery. Select a jug with the 8 x 50s package and set the convergence on the 4 pairs of guns from 300 out to 600. Lets say 300 on first set, 400 on the second, so on and so forth. The cone of fire should get bigger for the duration of the travel, hopefully preventing you from looping your rounds over the bandit as is described earlier, as well as allowing for some error in general.  This will obviously disperse the hitting power, but with 8 total guns the trade off might be worth it. I'm betting up close, like you should be if you really want the kill, that the convergence setting won't matter as much anyway, yet you should gain some hits on your long range shots. I'm sure someone has already tried this...anybody care to comment?

Magoo

[Cobra412]

Storch I'm not sure if your referring to the graph I redid or Mechanics.  

As far as the one I redid I forgot to label 2 things on it.  The line at 0 cm extending length wise on the vertical graph is your sight line.  The line just below it is your fuselage line.  The MG 151s are mounted 120 cm below the sight line and approximately 90 cm give or take 5 below the fuselage line.  The MG 131s are mounted directly on the fuselage line.  

The MG 151s are elevated slightly to reach a harmonization point of 400m.  So if you were firing at a range of 200m you would have to actually push your nose over slightly to gain rounds on target.  As you come inside of 200m you would start bring the nose up again as you come closer and closer to your target until at approximately 25m and your guns would be intersecting your sight line again.

A similiar concept can be applied to the MG 131s.  They are not only elevated but notched in.  At 400m you would be almost 80 cm above the sight line with a total coverage area of almost 3m from outer gun to outer gun.  

If you wanted to get maximum rounds on target with this convergence setting you would want to fire all guns at around 225m where your rounds would be almost 50cm above the sight line.  The amount of nose down attitude it takes to achieve this setting isn't much.  I could do some calculating and find out just how many milliradians it would take.  I know with the Mustang D200 and the K14 sight I only have to push nose over to about the center dots outer glow, maybe a tad more to achieve hits inside my convergence of D400.