Author Topic: P38  (Read 5572 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2005, 10:02:05 PM »
Quote
Hmmm...strange. In Thomas McGuire's "Combat Tactics in the South West Pacific" he explicity mentions that if you find yourself in trouble against a Zero or a Zeke, that you just extend and let the superior acceleration of the P-38 get you beyond gun range and then enter into a shallow climb and regain the altitude advantage because the Zero/Zeke will not be able to match.


Very true AcK.  However please read the post.

Quote
Crumpp says:

Let's see how far ahead the P38J was against the Zeke in comparision with other USAAF fighters.
 

The P 38 could outaccellerate the Zeke.  It was by and far not the best accellerating USAAF fighter.

Crumpp

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2005, 10:04:32 PM »
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Originally posted by OIO
with full flaps out at or under 200mph? yes wotan.

ill grant the E and F4 models will out-turn the 38.. i was reffering to the G models.

Karnak:
"Yaks and La-5/7"

I apologize i was typing a bit too fast. The Yak and LA5 should not be in the 'no problem to out-turn' You're right about those 2. I usually win turnfights vs yak and La5 because it ends up on the deck at stall speeds where the yak and La5 are at a disadvantage vs 38.

But the La7? definetely out-turned under 200mph by a 38 with flaps out.


The 38G with its crazy flap model will easily outurn a 109F4. Heck I hang with Spit Vs in the 38G...

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2005, 11:00:44 PM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The 38G with its crazy flap model will easily outurn a 109F4. Heck I hang with Spit Vs in the 38G...



you can even hang with a Spit V in the P-38J/L if you know how to fly the P-38.


ack-ack
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2005, 11:35:03 PM »
AKAK, if you want I'll go cut you another stick. Oh, and I've got a book I can loan you entitled "How to Talk to an Anvil (if you really have to)".:cool:
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2005, 11:39:04 PM »
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
you can even hang with a Spit V in the P-38J/L if you know how to fly the P-38.

ack-ack


I know, which just proves my point, The P38 is allready a great manouvering turner  at low speeds. I think some of the 38 drivers are extremly spoiled ang just ask for more, which makes all this very funny.  

So the question is, with this flap overspeed speed trick would the 38s then be better turners than even the spit V and Zeke?

That would be a hillarious statement about flight sims if it happend...

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2005, 11:49:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I know, which just proves my point, The P38 is allready a great manouvering turner  at low speeds. I think some of the 38 drivers are extremly spoiled ang just ask for more, which makes all this very funny.  

So the question is, with this flap overspeed speed trick would the 38s then be better turners than even the spit V and Zeke?

That would be a hillarious statement about flight sims if it happend...


The only P-38 driver I've seen ask for the auto-retract thing to kick in at a higher speed has been OIO.  All the rest of us have just asked for a better solution to the auto-retracting flaps, like modeling the damage from over-speeding/stress.  All we want is full control over our flaps and no other reason.  

What is so scary about having full control of the flaps and the risks that are associated with it?  Why do so many fear that?


ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2005, 12:55:54 AM »
As Savage pointed out in an earlier post in this thread, talking about implementing a better system for the flaps is beating a dead horse.  HiTech has alread pretty much put this to rest when he mentioned in another thread about this that he has no plans on changing it.  It's not because it's the best solution available, which it clearly not, but rather a game 'accessability' issue.  So basically, the auto-retracting flaps is a hand holding, coddling feature implemented to make the flight curve easier for players.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2005, 01:51:20 AM »
Please excuse the long, two-part post, but I've tried to compile every bit of what we've discussed in the past, and every logic and reasoning behind why the auto-retract is here:
---------------------------------------------


 The 'remove autoretraction' crowd has to understand, that giving full realistic control can sometimes actually deterr realism instead of enhance it. This point has been countlessly observed and demonstrated in IL2/FB in a most classic manner.


 IL2/FB is a wonderful aircombat sim, one of the few worthy games in the market that could be considered as a true 'competition' to Aces High in terms of WW2 air combat immersion, realism, and gameplay.

 Except the 1C staff are relatively inexperienced in how to model stuff under what agenda, as compared to HT and Pyro who started out as an online gamer like every one of us and had plenty of time to observe the tendencies of the gamers.

 This kind of difference shows on how they modelled - for instance - the RPM/prop pitch system in IL2/FB.

 In IL2/FB, the German planes are modelled in a fully realistic manner with the RPM and throttle control merged as one lever. The player can also realistically unlink the controls and shift the RPM control to manual levels by manipulating the prop pitch control, just like in the real plane.

 However, the problem is, such manual control was hardly ever used in real life.

 Only in utmost emergencies or limited conditions would it be ever used. In official Bf109 manuals manual control is only recommended when the plane falls under abnormal conditions - ie. extreme speed dives where something had to be done to stop the pilot from damaging the plane.

 In the majority of normal combat cases the RPM+throttle control merged as one system offered more advantages to the pilot in the fact that the operation and flight of the plane was simplified.

 Real life pilots sat in a real life cockpit - more switches and more things to control meant more pressure and complications under combat - thus, if the controls could be simplified despite a slight performance disadvantage, this was actually more advantageous overall, than the pilot having to control everything himself.

 Its sort of like the bubble-top canopies - slight performance disadvantage, but overall advantage considering the importance of SA. However, us gamers don't have to fight such complications.

The end result is that in Il2/FB multiplayer combats, the manual control system of German planes has sort of degenerated into a manually controlled WEP system by kicking the plane RPM upto levels it would not be used in real life due to maintenance issues.

 People set the prop pitch control to a slider and manually overrev the engine just under the point where it would overheat and damage itself. The result is a Bf109 or a Fw190 with acceleration or climb performance over its normally observed levels.

 In short,

Offering full realism in control over their plane, backfired and degenerated into an unrealistic exploit which people would fly their planes in a most unlikely manner observed in real life.


 Is this realistic?

 Technically, its possible. If the pilot can keep watch over the engine temperatures and manually adjust it. For a limited time such use was actualy seen - such as German fighters in Finnish airfields, which were usually makeshift with short runways. The pilot would overrev the engine for a shorter take-off run.

However, situationally, this is sorely unrealstic. The prop pitch lever is at the left side of the pilot, next to the RPM+throttle lever. In a combat, a pilot would have to manipulate two~three levers at the same time with his left hand, while simultaneously pulling stick forces, pushing buttons, moving flap levers and stuff with his right hand.

 Such overrev controls were not for combat purposes and yet, in the game environment of Il2/FB, it happens all the time - so frequent that its almost become mandatory. It's considered stupid to not use manual overrev while going vertical, for example.


It is the same in the way they modelled the flap systems in Il2/FB.

 They emphasized on control realism rather than look at this from an overall situational realism point of view.

 They assumed an arbitrary(but not too unreasonable) safety margin on the flaps, and added a few features such as flap deploying more slowly under high air pressures.

 Thus, even if the official plane manual would suggest that a certain plane's flap not be used over X amount of speed IAS, a pilot is able to deploy flaps almost 150~200km/h higher than the speed it was sanctioned for.

 Like some have mentioned, this could be possible, even probable, in some cases. A flap wouldn't just dislodge from its joints or be instantly destroyed because the speed went over the limit. There would be certain safety margins the manufacturers would have considered. So, technically, a pilot probably can start lowering, or maintain a certain flap position despite some speed difference over the limit.

 However, again, is this realstic?

Technically feasible. However, situationally unrealistic.


(contd.)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 01:54:56 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2005, 01:51:59 AM »
(contd.)


 Flying a plane wasn't for fun of combat for real life pilots. In most cases the pilots were trained not to even go near the circumstances where they might need flaps for fighting an enemy.

 They would stick to the simplest of maneuvering, rely much more in teamwork than personal skill. Only a handful of experts would ever use flaps on a regular basis, but even those were limited to certain conditions - ie. when they think they could get a firing solution momentarily by deploying flaps and hanging in the turn, without having to bug out and extend.

 What would usually happen if a pilot found out that his limited use of flaps was to no avail? Would he still attempt to stick to the bogey's six? Definately not. They would just extend out, and let the wingmen do their job until he has regained his alt/speed status to attempt a second attack. Only when it was a 1vs1 duel(which was extremely rare in real life) which one side would die if he lost, would the pilot risk so much, just so he could survive.

 Now, to that situational fact, add in the difficulties and complications of controlling multiple position lever systems during a stall-fight which required tense concentration.

 Hold the stick with two hands, let left hand off and adjust throttle, grab the stick again, let right hand off and move flap lever, grab stick again, woops the airspeed changed, let right hand off again, grab flap lever again and pull flaps up.. and over and over again.

Again, to all that, add another fact, that pilots did not gamble with their lives by breaking SOPs. They had strict limitations and responsibilities to take care of their aircraft.

  Its fairly easy to manage landings and takeoffs in simulation games. We manage 200mph ditches everyday in the game. However, in real life, if anything that is requried for a landing procedure was damaged and inoperative, it could mean life and death for the pilot. We hear unfortunate tales of airshow pilots with engine troubles of their vintage planes crashing to death even in relatively flat terrains. Ditching was a dangerous thing to do, and a normal landing procedure being impossible meant you had to try and ditch - or bail out.

Flaps, are basically not for combat use. It is a secondary flight control used for stabilizing the plane under certain conditions. They were most frequently used in takeoffs and landings. A 'combat flap' wasn't built for combat purpose in the first place. It is nothing but a normal flap with an intermediate position which could be considered useful in certain combat situations - hence, the name. Combat flap is not a flap type, only a certain position on a normal flap.  A stuck, damaged, unevenly deployed flap would mean a very dangerous landing for the pilot.

 So, would a pilot, for sake of combat, risk damaging his flaps on purpose? If he sees an enemy plane trying a desparate split-S, will he try and follow it with his flaps down, despite the danger that the increasing speed could damage his flap?

Or would he have tried to play it safe, and keep his plane under the recommendations of what the manufacturers told you to abide by? Not follow the split-S at all, let the wingman take the pass, or retract the flap before going into a speed-gaining maneuver?


 What happened in Il2/FB with that kind of 'full control' modelling? Well, like Karnak mentioned, the game turned into a 'flapfest'. Deploying flaps is a mandatory procedure for every bit of maneuvering in Il2/FB. They know the absolute line where the flaps take damage is set, so they will exploit every mile and kilometer per hour they can, before they have to retract flaps.

 They will keep the flaps down as airbreaks in overshoot/extreme low speed maneuvering . Who cares if it goes over 100km/h of its recommended setting?


Besides, even if the line is crossed and the flap is jammed stuck, you would still be able to retain the effect you needed by the flaps. So, you will shoot down the enemy plane, and then you can rtb to safety, right?

Why try to abide by the real life recommendations, or try to fly in the manner resembling that of real life... when you can just go through unnecessary risks that might damage your plane....  but still get satisfying results by shooting down the enemy plane?

 What's there to lose?

 It's only a flap jam in the worst case!

 I can risk that much.. I don't need the flaps to land.. right?

 All thats important is keeping the flaps down so they control my speed, whether or not I damage it in the process, right!?

 I mean, this is technically possible and realistic, right?


 There you have it.

 The EXACT reason why HT will not allow flap use in any kind of form other than was sanctioned in real life recommendations.

 Even jamming the flaps once they go over the limit, is not an option. It's either autoretract, or complete destruction and loss of flap flight effects.

 In whatever way it could be set up, the penalty must be severe or influential enough to make people think twice before doing something they were not supposed to do. Nobody is going to overwork the flaps and gonna get away with it.

 Basically, that's the whole reasoning behind it. If your flap autoretracts, you crossed the line which you shouldn't have even approached in the first place.

 
 ......


Comments

 If you think you are in a situation where your momentary use of flaps would backfire, and not achieve the results you thought it would, then you should be thinking of getting out of that situation and try again, instead of thinking of how you can push the flap to its limit and risk a deadly stall.

 I don't think this is too hard to understand... is it?

 Why so obsessed in staying at the target's six o'c? If the flaps cannot hold anymore, then you've failed in your intent. Time to back off and try another pass. Isn't this the normal course of action every fighter plane should take?

 Or is their some subliminal willing inserted into the P-38, that its pilot should always try the harshest of maneuvering, always try to grab the bogey's six and never let go, and always outmaneuver a  superior turning Spitfire or a Hurricane and beat them in their own game and gloat about it?

 This is an obsession IMO.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2005, 02:11:25 AM by Kweassa »

Offline leitwolf

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« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2005, 02:23:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by OIO
[..]
Leit: the 38's flaps retract and cause the aircraft to spin out of control. Thats the problem. a 190 uses flaps as a last resort and at really low speeds, the 38 HAS to use flaps under 250mph or anything will turn inside it.
[..]


I'm not saying you're wrong, many people have claimed they lose control when the flaps autoretract.
Do you have a film of this happening? :confused:
I do spin my 38 sometimes but only when using too much rudder, jerking the stick too much at high AOA, accelerated stall, or a screwup on my part doing a hammerhead, never once because the flaps popped in.
That said, I dont use combat trim, maybe that's the problem?
veni, vidi, vulchi.

Offline Despair

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« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2005, 03:27:14 AM »
I am kinda new to this game, been playing for just 2 months, and this is my first ww2 areal combat sim i ever played. Before starting to play i looked for some information , esp. fist hand information about ww2 areal combat. Being a Russian I found lots of artciles available on internet on areal combat in ww2 on the Eastern front, below is one of the interesting links, its a fighters manual for yak and la pilots against Bf109 and FW190 dated 1943. dogfighting

BTW that site has a few very interesting interviews with former Russian fighters. In short, every source of information states that using flaps in engagements is not adviced as it will greatly slow down the plane and make it an easy pray that even your wingman will not be able to protect as he would have to slow down himself and risk his plane too. Furthermore turn fights are not generally welcomed even tho yaks and la5 would get on german's tail in usually 3 full circles for about the same reason, getting slow and become an easy target.
Everyday in MA even experinced pilots are doing things that former ww2 vets would consider foolish, but we are all playing for fun. There was no fun in fighting ww2. This is the biggest difference. So its unwise to demand the same gameplay as the ww2 warfare was, unless of cource HTC is planning to introduce a hardcore mode, that once dead your account is deleted but your credit card is charged for a year of play    :lol

Offline Scherf

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« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2005, 04:00:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Despair
HTC is planning to introduce a hardcore mode, that once dead your account is deleted but your credit card is charged for a year of play    :lol



^


:rofl :rofl :rofl

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Offline killnu

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« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2005, 06:09:52 AM »
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Technically feasible. However, situationally unrealistic.


so implementing something that didnt exist is more realistic?  
i do think you answered AKAKs question though of"what is everyone afraid of?"


Leit:  i think im the only 38 driver (i use that term loosely for me) that still uses combat trim. :o   but i like it and i wont change.:aok
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2005, 10:52:33 AM »
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
HiTech has alread pretty much put this to rest when he mentioned in another thread about this that he has no plans on changing it.  It's not because it's the best solution available, which it clearly not, but rather a game 'accessability' issue.  So basically, the auto-retracting flaps is a hand holding, coddling feature implemented to make the flight curve easier for players.

That is not what HiTech said.  That is what you claim.  HiTech did not say it was an accessibility issue, he said it was a realistic combat issue.

Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Quote
Ummm...that's why we're asking for a more realistic modeling approach to this problem. In RL, if the flaps were deployed at 250mph, they didn't break or get damaged at 251mph.

I call BS on that it would be a more relistic. Namly because the consiquences are much different in how you would use the flaps then they would in real life. Basicly uping the limits from the specs would cause more unrealistic behavior while flying.

2nd your argument is still not against auto retracting flaps, but wrather that you want the limits raised.


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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2005, 11:31:05 AM »
kweassa, I dont know why you insist on attributing inaccurate critiquing of 38 drivers tactics in these discussions.  We all know that the 38s strength is working in the verticle.  Verticle cant last forever, so that leads to a loop fight.  A loop fights max speed is reached at the bottom apex of the loop.  Often the magic auto-retract speed is where? Very near the bottom apex of the loop.  Hence it becomes an issue when the controls are taken out of the pilots hands less than a second or two before the plane will lose speed anyways.

Oops lunch is over...not that I have a 2 page manifesto to write, but....Later!