Author Topic: The enigma of the Bf-109  (Read 11445 times)

Offline mw

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #120 on: February 18, 2005, 04:44:18 PM »
Baugher got that bit about the 31st all wrong.  See:

http://www.31stfightergroup.com/31stReference/history/31st.html

Its been a few years since I wrote that, however, the Baugher quote used is wrong on the facts  and  the insinuation implied  in this context is misleading.  If memory serves the 31st never met any 109s while stationed in England.   Hmmm.. there is no record that they did.

Offline HoHun

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #121 on: February 18, 2005, 04:54:54 PM »
Hi Mw,

>Baugher got that bit about the 31st all wrong.

Oops, thanks for pointing it out! From your article, it appears they left the P-39 behind in the states when they came to England - which was the standard procedure early on.

>If memory serves the 31st never met any 109s while stationed in England.   Hmmm.. there is no record that they did.

Hm, they were part of the Dieppe air cover (with Spitfires) - if there were any Me 109s left on the channel, Dieppe probably was the place to meet them ;-)

But unfortunately, this doesn't help us with the P-39 comparison.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #122 on: February 18, 2005, 05:01:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Glasses,

>P-39 dominated the 109?

>Compared to the P-39 the 109 is a lspitfire for  god's sakes.

From http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p39_17.html

"The 31st Fighter Group was provided with Airacobras in Southern England in August of 1942. Between August and October of 1942, the Group participated in missions against enemy targets in France. The Group suffered heavy losses in air-to-air combat against the Luftwaffe, and the 31st FG re-equipped with Spitfire Mk Vs."

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Hohum hohum its off to the land of fantasy again....

"Many Soviet P-39 combat pilots wrote memoirs in the 1970s and 1980s in which they described their wartime experiences, hundreds of pages of descriptions of life in fighter units and of air combat. Other publications released since the collapse of the Soviet Union offer new information on what units were equipped with the P-39 and when, lists of pilots and their total sorties, aerial engagements, and scores. When fully exploited, these sources will reveal an enlarged and much improved picture of the P-39 Airacobra. It will be shown to be an outstanding combat aircraft, as worthy of respect as the P-38 Lightning, P-47 Thunderbolt, and P-51 Mustang"

"The Airacobra was quite popular with its Russian pilots, who appreciated its heavy armament, its excellent low-altitude performance, and its ability to absorb an incredible amount of battle damage. When operating at low altitudes, the Airacobra was often able to hold its own against top-of-the-line German fighters. Some Soviet pilots felt that the P-39 outclassed even the Messerschmitt Bf 109 and Focke Wulf FW 190 at altitudes below 10,000 feet. Some of the users of the type were Guard (ie. elite) Fighter Regiments 16 GIAP, 19 GIAP, 21 GIAP, 72 GIAP, 100 GIAP, 213 GIAP (previously 508 IAP) and Fighter Regiments 196 IAP, 255 IAP, 508 IAP (later 213 GIAP)."

"Aerial warfare over the Eastern Front was particularly suited to the Airacobra. There was no long-range, high-level, strategic bombing, only tactical bombing at intermediate and low altitudes. On this battlefield the P-39 matched, and in some areas surpassed, early and mid-war Bf-109s. And it had no trouble dispatching Ju-87 Stukas or twin-engine bombers. Five out of the ten highest scoring Soviets aces logged the majority of their kills in P-39s. In fact, P-39 jockeys filled the number two, three, and four spots: Aleksandr Pokryshkin (59), Aleksandr Gulaev (57), and Grigoriy Rechkalov (56)."

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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #123 on: February 18, 2005, 05:15:58 PM »
and also the pilots did say under what conditions the P-51 was better performer than the 109,that's what being left out conviniently by you.


I'm waiting....

So far....[

U]"Most of us considered the 109G over-developed. Poor landing characteristics added to its woes." [/U]

"They're fitted with a high altitude supercharger and at anything over 25,000 ft they just play cat & mouse with us. At 28,000 ft the spitifre could turn in an astonishingly narrow radius. We on the other hand, in the thin air of those altitudes had to carry out every maneuver with caution and at full power so as not to lose control"

"However, the tendency to swing on take-off and landing, which had first manifested itself during tests with the early prototypes, continued to plague the Bf 109E and contributed substantially to the Luftwaffe’s high accident rate, some 1,500 Bf 109 fighters being lost between the beginning of the war and the autumn of 1941 in accidents caused by unintentional swings."

"With the phasing out of the F-series, the basic Bf 109 design might be considered to have passed the peak of its development, for with the introduction of the G-series the constant operational demands for increased fire power and additional equipment brought with them a serious deterioration in the fighter’s flying characteristics."

"The Bf 109G could not be flown in a landing circuit with Raps and undercarriage down other than at full throttle, and experienced German operational pilots have described its landing characteristics as “malicious” "

"Despite the advent of the very much superior Focke-Wulf Fw 190 fighter, production of the now elderly Bf 109 was progressively increased"

You already know that Barkhorn on the question about best fighter of WW2 answered: On high altitudes P-51 and low altitudes Yak-9, Surprized?

None of this is my words...Milo was kind enough to post one of the articles i'd read and couldnt find again. I'm not even adding in the other info he found...

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Offline Pongo

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2005, 05:28:24 PM »
this thread has turned into
the enema of the Bf-109

Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2005, 05:29:45 PM »
This is not totally relevant to the topics here but has some value...

"I stayed down on the deck just long enough to photograph two FW-190's burning on the ground but couldn't find the first one I thought had probably gone in.  I didn't spend much time searching since it seemed a pretty unhealthy place for a lone gun-less P-51.  I started back upstairs trying to figure out where I was.  When red marker flak began bursting around me about 24,000 feet, I found out I was right near the target area.  I looked at my clock and decided that everyone else had gone home since I'd been there an hour and the radio was very silent.  But I put out a call for Playboy Squadron and found that Red Flight was only about ten minutes ahead.  They turned around, picked me up and we came home - barely.  My crew chief measured the gas in my tanks and just shook his head.  But he smiled when he saw I hadn't broken the wire on my throttle quadrant that would have put me in full emergency boost at 72 inches of manifold pressure.  (Strangely enough, I never broke that wire during my entire combat tour.  I guess I was too much aware of that single engine up front that usually had to get me another 600 miles before I could shut it down.) In briefing, I claimed two FW's destroyed and two damaged."

I left the whole paragraph intact....here's a double ace (11 victories) in the pony and he never even used wep ever during his combat tour...obviously the pony had performance to spare....

http://www.31stfightergroup.com/31stReference/Profiles/Riddle.html

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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2005, 06:05:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Meyer
From other thread, about the P39... this is priceless :D


"The regiment fell into the "oven" of combat over the Kuban and on the second day suffered its first loss: Airacobra 41-38427 with engine Allison V-1710-63 (E-6) no. AAC 42-135031 did not return from its combat mission. This was the first P-39D-2 shot down on the Soviet-German front.

The regiment had to face Luftwaffe aces from Udet, Green Heart, and Mulders squadrons. Already on the following day, 11 March, two P-39D-2s (138433 [11] and 446) went into repair. Nonetheless, the regiment quickly launched into the fight with the stubborn Teutons. On 23 March 8 Airacobras faced off against 30 Messerschmitts and shot down 13, losing 3 of their own. But this victory came at a terrible price. Two pilots, in order to change the course of a badly developing battle, consciously flew their damaged and burning aircraft into enemy airplanes and perished, destroying two Messers in the process. Sergeant N. Kudryashov was 19 years old and Senior Lieutenant I. Shmatko was in his twenties. B. B. Glinka was wounded in this battle-a round came straight through the cockpit of his P-39D-2, no. 138431.

April aerial combats were particularly successful, when the pilots had a firmer grasp on their airplanes and tactics. During that month I. I. Babak shot down 14 fighters, Lieutenant Boris Glinka 3 fighters and 2 bombers, Senior Lieutenant Dmitriy Glinka 5 and 1, Sergeant I. Kudrya 5 and 1, Lieutenant N. Lavitskiy 1 and 2 respectively, and Senior Sergeant V. Sapyan 2 fighters. The regiment suffered losses as well, because its opponents were the "cream" of the Luftwaffe. 15 April 1943 is considered the "black day" of the regiment: D. Glinka and V. Sapyan were shot down at around 1300, and Senior Lieutenant M. Petrov and Sergeant Bezbabnov in the evening at around 1900. Erich Hartmann, a relatively new fighter pilot in III/JG 52, shot down one of the "evening" Cobras (41-38451 or 42-4606). This was the seventh kill (and first Airacobra) of the future top German ace of World War II, who finished his career in Soviet captivity with a score of 352 kills, some 345 of them on the Eastern front.

Altogether during two months of intense aerial combat over the Kuban, pilots of 45th IAP shot down 118 German aircraft, losing 7 Airacobras shot down and 8 damaged in combat or in accidents, 1 P-40E shot down and 1 destroyed in an accident. The regiment had the best results in the theater and was quickly, already by 10 May, re-equipped with new models of the Airacobra: P-39L, M, and N. The surviving intact old P-39D-2s (138416, 429, 456, and 458), P-39K, and P-40Es were handed off to the 16th Guards IAP and 298th IAP."


"The regiment went into combat on 17 March 1943 from Korenovsk airfield, in the Kuban, as part of the 219th Bomber Division, 4th Air Army. The regiment fought in this subordination for the entire extent of the celebrated air campaign over the Kuban. It fought against the best German fighter squadrons: JG 51 (Mulders) and JG 3 (Green Hearts). During the period from 17 March to 20 August 1943, the regiment flew 1,625 combat sorties with a flight time of 2,072 hours. It conducted 111 aerial engagements, in which it shot down 167 and damaged an additional 29 enemy aircraft. Its losses were 30 Airacobras destroyed and 11 damaged.
For combat successes in the Kuban campaign, the 298th IAP was designated the 104th Guards IAP on 24 August 1943. The regiment commander, I. A. Taranenko, received the rank Hero of the Soviet Union and was promoted. Major V. G. Semenishin, who had been awarded HSU on 24 May 1943, was named the regiment commander on 18 July 1943. In August 1943, the newspaper Pravda published a photograph of the four best pilots of the regiment with the inscription, "Fighter pilots who, in the battle for the Kuban, have shot down 60 German aircraft: major V. Semenishin, Captains K. Vishnevetskiy and V. Drygin, Junior Lieutenant A. Vilyamson". V. M. Drygin received the HSU rank on 24 May 1943, Vishnevetskiy at the end of the Kuban campaign on 24 August 1943, and Vilyamson on 27 June 1945"

"The regiment began combat operations on 9 April, at the very beginning of the battle for the Kuban. This campaign is considered pivotal in the history of Soviet VVS. Over the course of two months of intense battles with the best fighter squadrons of the Luftwaffe, Soviet pilots won strategic superiority in the air. Approximately 1100 German aircraft were destroyed, some 800 of them in the air. Western historians call this battle the "Stalingrad" of the Luftwaffe.

The pilots of the regiment fought combat operations of a corresponding nature with German fighters. The outcome of the battles in April: 289 Airacobra and 13 Kittyhawk combat sorties, in which were conducted 28 aerial engagements. Shot down were Bf-109E-14, Bf-109F-12, Bf-109G-45, FW-190-2, Ju-88-4, Do-217-1, and Ju-87-1. Of these, Guards Captain A. I. Pokryshkin shot down 10 Messers, Guards Senior Lieutenant V. I. Fadeev 12-Bf-109s, and Guards Senior Lieutenant G. A. Rechkalov 7 Messers and 1 Ju-88."

"Drawing conclusions, it can be said that the debut of the Airacobra in the Soviet VVS was singularly successful. In skilled hands it was a powerful weapon, fully on a par with the enemy equipment. There was no "special" operational environment for the Airacobras-they were employed as normal multi-purpose fighters that fulfilled the same roles as Lavochkins and Yakovlevs: they contested with fighters, escorted bombers, flew on reconnaissance, and protected our ground forces. They differed from Soviet-produced fighters in having a more powerful armament, survivability, and a good radio, and fell behind our fighters in vertical maneuverability, capability to withstand excessive G-forces, and to execute acute maneuvers. The pilots loved their Airacobras for comfort and good protection. As one P-39 pilot expressed it, he felt like he was "flying in a safe". Airacobra pilots did not burn because the aircraft was metal and the fuel cells were positioned far away in the wing. They were not subject to jets of steam or streams of oil because the engine was behind them. Their faces were not beat up on protrusions of the gunsight. If the airplane should happen to flip over on landing, they were not turned into lump of flesh, as happened to twice HSU A. F. Klubov after transitioning from a P-39 to an La-7. There was a kind of mystical belief that a pilot attempting to preserve a damaged Cobra by belly landing it would almost always emerge not only alive, but also undamaged. But if he bailed out of the same airplane he often was seriously injured or killed by the stabilizer, which was on the same level as the door."



How bout getting a clue....I haven't put up a single comment I cant back up with facts.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2005, 06:16:52 PM by humble »

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Offline mw

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #127 on: February 18, 2005, 06:13:07 PM »
"From your article, it appears they left the P-39 behind in the states when they came to England - which was the standard procedure early on."

Yes, I'm glad you picked that up.  I just popped back in here to edit and clarify my post on that point.   I see it wasn't necessary ;)

Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2005, 06:32:24 PM »
While completing the account of the Airacobra I in Soviet aviation, the following conclusions can be drawn. Despite a number of design deficiencies of this first model of the air frame (undercarriage weakness, engine seizures, inadequate rate of climb, tendency to flat spin), it was a threatening weapon in the hands of skilled aerial warriors. As was written in the summary of the commander of 153d (28th Guards) IAP regarding the combat work in the Voronezh and West Fronts in July-August 1942, "The Airacobra aircraft is considered by the Germans to be the most dangerous enemy and should be engaged in combat only when they [the Germans] have numerical superiority and the advantage in altitude and surprise."

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Offline Glasses

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2005, 08:06:22 PM »
Exactly and the same thing applies to the god forsaken 109 .

If the pilots were experienced and knew how to use the aircraft well the aircraft  would serve the pilot and would dominate the battle to its strengths.

By the time the Pony came on the scene most of the jagdfliegeren were nothing but inexperienced cannon fodder, that added to the fact the USAAF had  mostly a cloud of metal over Western Germany and Europe.

It's retarded, like I said before and I said again, either the 109 had very good perfromance or the pilots were superhuman.

Of course that article has no biased and overciaiming, in   "Stubborn Teutons" ? lol

Ho Hun among others have posted numerous original documents  about how the aircraft performed in combat it's retarded whenever a thread like this begins becuase the  Look our airplnes fed the poor children went to the stratosphere and killed everything by just looking at it by patriotic fervor proves nothing to the fact.

Was the 109? difficult you bet! Did it require skill same... if the pony and the Jug and every other allied aircraft was so easy to fly why  is it only that only 1% of the pilots made kills, how many of the pilots that made  Ace in a day survived the war or were captured.

You see where I'm getting at it's like saying the 109 couldn't take off the ground and the mgical laminart flow wing which had its strengths and its weaknesses like has been said, was not at all the war ender but production numbers and relative inequality of pilot skill at the end was that proved too much for the 109.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2005, 08:13:57 PM by Glasses »

Offline Meyer

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2005, 09:19:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
The spit V decimated the the 109F over europe...    


Oh really? where did that happened?  in France? hmm no. Africa? hmmm no. Russia? nope.... perhaps in another TO? :rolleyes:

Offline GScholz

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2005, 09:20:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
The top 3 aces (of any conflict) all flew 109's exclusively. Of the 20 top aces (of any conflict) 12 flew 109's exclusively.

Nuf said.
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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #132 on: February 18, 2005, 09:30:01 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 03:43:50 PM by Skuzzy »

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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #133 on: February 18, 2005, 09:39:15 PM »
Personal attack
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 03:44:12 PM by Skuzzy »

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Offline humble

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The enigma of the Bf-109
« Reply #134 on: February 18, 2005, 09:45:35 PM »
The top 3 aces (of any conflict) all flew 109's exclusively. Of the 20 top aces (of any conflict) 12 flew 109's exclusively

Sigh....the other 40 watt bulb returns.

OK Ace....who is the #1 ace of the Luftwaffe and why?

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