Author Topic: Crime Drops 99%! (Read 2309 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 23, 2005, 09:01:19 AM »

curval... I have allways simply said that people should be given a choice as to wether to arm themselves or not... Why are you having a hard time understanding that? Why do I have to have a reason that you approve or sounds logical to you?

Who cares what sounds like a good reason to you? My contention is that I don't need a reason.... wanting to is reason enough.

Fun or protection... either are good enough... hobby is good enough ... just like em is good enough.

lazs

beet1e · « **Reply #46 on:** February 23, 2005, 09:06:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
curval... I have allways simply said that people should be given a choice as to wether to arm themselves or not...

Unfortunately, your system extends that choice to criminals.

Toad · « **Reply #47 on:** February 23, 2005, 09:11:33 AM »

So does yours. You're just in denial.

lazs2 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 23, 2005, 09:11:40 AM »

hmm? not really. But I would extend it to criminals if I could. I would say that any man who has paid his debt should have his rights restored.

I also agree with harsher penalties for crimes involving firearms.

simple stuff really.

lazs

beet1e · « **Reply #49 on:** February 23, 2005, 09:31:08 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mr. Toad
So does yours. You're just in denial.

You're making the mistake of counting the "gun" crimes. Had you been paying attention, you would know that a great many "gun" crimes here are committed with replica weapons. These crimes are still considered gun crimes because the perpetrator has instilled fear into his victim to "persuade" that person to do what he/she otherwise would not have done, eg. hand over the keys to the safe/cash register.

However, the same penalties exist, whether or not the gun was real. Such a crime is still classified as an armed robbery.

So why do the criminals use replicas instead of the real thing if, as Mr. Toad suggests, guns are so readily available to criminals, and given that the same penalties exist for use of replica weapons? I mean, you might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb, right? Erm.... I think it has something to do with gun control. You know, they can't get their hands on the real thing.

Try again, Bufo.

But better make it quick, as there is to be an extended period of toodle-pippage (EuroCon 2005) after which I shall return here, and be available for consultation.

:p

Curval · « **Reply #50 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:47:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
So does yours. You're just in denial.

No it doesn't extend to crimminals. As a result those crimminals are inded still able to get them, just with significantly more difficulty. This results in a lower gun-crime rate.

Toad · « **Reply #51 on:** February 23, 2005, 11:30:13 AM »

Just don't understand your own history/stats do you?

OK..try this. How many were killed in your country by actual firearms, not replicas, in 1992.

How many were killed in your country by actual firearms, not replicas, in 2002?

It'll come to you eventually.

Your criminals are still getting guns.

And Curval, it's apparently, about as easy for UK criminals as it was 10 years ago.

Toad · « **Reply #52 on:** February 23, 2005, 12:23:19 PM »

Now take a look at the column that says "All weapons excluding air weapons".

Look at the number of crimes involving REAL firearms.

Look at 1994 and then at 2003. There was a decline from '94 until about '97 and since then there's been a steady increase.

Now look at the "handgun" column. Almost an identical trend. Gosh... more of those now too.

Tell me again your criminals can't get firearms.

Curval · « **Reply #53 on:** February 23, 2005, 12:33:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
And Curval, it's apparently, about as easy for UK criminals as it was 10 years ago.

So?

What you don't have in England is the plethora of legal handguns which are STOLEN from law abiding citizens and then used in crimes that you see in the US.

Crimminals will always get guns. It's true. Even here on this little rock that lazs equates to a small Walt Disney World. Darn difficult though, because there is not a large number of legal guns that can be stolen. Crimminals have to import them, somehow getting past the customs department. 99.9% of them wouldn't even try because if caught they would be facing a very very long time behind bars. Just having a bullet is enough to get serious jail time.

I like it...it works for me.

Toad · « **Reply #54 on:** February 23, 2005, 01:19:31 PM »

Curval,

Here's the "So" part... mostly directed to Beet, the man that doesn't know/understand gun control in his own country.

Quote

Originally posted by beet1e
So why do the criminals use replicas instead of the real thing if, as Mr. Toad suggests, guns are so readily available to criminals, and given that the same penalties exist for use of replica weapons?

I mean, you might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb, right? Erm.... I think it has something to do with gun control. You know, they can't get their hands on the real thing.

Allow me to emphasize his positon:

Erm.... I think it has something to do with gun control. You know, they can't get their hands on the real thing.

Now look at the stats.

Clearly, just as many "get their hands on the real thing" as they did about 10 years ago. In fact, MORE are getting their hands on the real thing and the trend is that MORE and MORE and MORE are getting their hands on the real thing.

That is the "so".

Furball · « **Reply #55 on:** February 23, 2005, 01:21:14 PM »

you guys turned my hilarious, well thought out, funniest thread evar into a serious debate. This should just be full of ROFL's.

you sux!

Nashwan · « **Reply #56 on:** February 23, 2005, 01:21:58 PM »

I found the statistics on guns seized by customs and excise in the UK. 264 last year, just under half handguns. According to customs, around 20% were deliberate attempts to smuggle guns to criminals, the rest were seized because of inomplete paperwork, ignorance of the law, soldiers trying to bring home trophies, etc.

Offences with handguns were down 15% last year, shotgun offences down 4%, offences with imitation firearms up 48%.

Quote

Nashwan you got a point?

Yes. Don't post reports from openly racist sites without a: a warning (nws) and b: a note letting people know how biased the information is likely to be.

beet1e · « **Reply #57 on:** February 23, 2005, 01:22:44 PM »

LOL Mr. Toad! I knew there was a wall of stats coming.

:cool:

You said (have said in the past) that "criminals can always get guns". I don't agree. They can't always get them, and that's why a high proportion of criminals in Britain resort to replicas.

No law is perfect, not even gun control law. My earlier estimate is that our gun control laws are about 97¾% effective, based on the gun homicide rate when compared with that of America.

Regrettably, I don't have time to argue this time.

You might want to give my sig. another read though.

Enjoy your weekend,
toodle-pip!

Toad · « **Reply #58 on:** February 23, 2005, 01:38:05 PM »

Just for you:

Quote

\beet:

Erm.... I think it has something to do with gun control. You know, they can't get their hands on the real thing.

[/b]

Now look at the stats.

1999/00 (Handguns) 3685 (Firearms) 6843
2000/01 4104 7047
2001/01 5874 10,023
2002/03 5549 10,248

Clearly, your statement is false. Not surprising, as you have repeated shown you haven't a clue as to what's going on with firearms in your country, historically or otherwise.

They do indeed get their hands on "the real thing" and the trend is that the are getting their hands on more and more of them.

As for your sig, it's a lovely fallacious argument. I haven't seen anyone claim what you say. What I have seen and said repeatedly is that your ever increasingly restrictive gun laws have not made a statistically significant difference in the firearms homicide rate. This trend is clear long before Hungerford/Dunblane, too.

I challenge you to post the firearms homicide rate for the England, Wales and Scotland in "per 100,00" for the last 50 years. (or whatever is available) Let's see what the laws have actually done for you.

Curval · « **Reply #59 on:** February 23, 2005, 01:43:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
Curval,

Here's the "So" part... mostly directed to Beet, the man that doesn't know/understand gun control in his own country.

Allow me to emphasize his positon:

Erm.... I think it has something to do with gun control. You know, they can't get their hands on the real thing.

Now look at the stats.

Clearly, just as many "get their hands on the real thing" as they did about 10 years ago. In fact, MORE are getting their hands on the real thing and the trend is that MORE and MORE and MORE are getting their hands on the real thing.

That is the "so".

Your question was directed at me...not at Beet1e.

That doesn't answer my "So?" at all. What you have done is continued your discussion with Beet1e..not me.