Please unperk the Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H

[tikky]

how can la-7 be better if i cant last 10 mins in it (tiny fuel load lol, even at 100%)......

[Elfie]

Originally posted by tikky
how can la-7 be better if i cant last 10 mins in it (tiny fuel load lol, even at 100%)......

I dont fly the La-7 all that often, but even I have a 5-1 k/d in it this tour

[vorticon]

"
Hell, for that matter the G-10 is better than all of our current perk planes, except maybe the Tempest."

bull****...its gun package isnt that great, it probably wouldent win a turnfight with a lancaster, i find its deck acceleration pathetic, veiws arnt that great...

spit 14 however, has good veiws, good handling, high top speeds, good acceleration, good gun package, decent climbing,

[Urchin]

The G-10 accelerates somewhat slower than the La-7, but faster than every other non-perked plane.  It is probably about on par with the Tempest, better than the F4U-4 and the Spit 14.

[g00b]

1st off let me say thanks for your well thought out and logical post, it's refreshing these days. Allow me to rebut some of your comments.

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The F4U-4 and Tempest flown correctly are simply dominating in a typical MA engagement.
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So is any plane when flown 'correctly'.


* Please... Both these planes can engage and disengage at will vs any plane in the game. Only the La7, G10, and P-51 are even close and the LA7 can't follow over 10k, the G10 can't turn with either plane, and P-51 suffers in the climb dept.

No other planes give the pilot such impunity save for the 262 and 163.

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Spit14 is nice, but maybe perked a wee bit high.
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Too high.

* you may be right.


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TA-152 is uber at higher elevations, just because it doesn't rock on the deck doesn't mean it's not worth the perkies.
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Just like the P-47s are uber at higher elevations?

* again... true... perk the P47! Or de-perk the 152, I think you're right, they're roughly equivalent aircraft all in all. The buff pilots may whine about it though.


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I strongly disagree that low level performance is the main factor in determning an aircrafts value. Ord, range, guns, and handling all play a significant role.
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Right, so how about the P-51D which has:

* low alt speed
* high alt performance
* 2nd longest range on internal fuel
* carries 2k lkbs + 6 HVARs
* 6x .50s
* excellent handling in all axises + combat flaps

Did I miss anything you brought up as being 'important'?

Still no? Not perk material? Because its too popular to be perked?

OK, so it's popular. That's great.

Then let's give a chance for the F4U-4 and the Spit-14, Ta152H to become popular too.

* I think the most "important" is actually climb/acceleration. The P-51d is poor in both areas. It also has average turning ability. I think it's rated fine as is. I have very few deaths against P-51's in the last couple tours, as a matter of fact, ship gunners have more kills on me.


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Only people who do not posses the SA and ACM to avoid having to run out on the deck all the time feel the low fast planes are significantly better in the MA setting.
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So, when that someone who does not posess SA and ACM decides to run to deck in his plane, what's the vet gonna do if he chooses to chase him?

Use a tractor-beam? (or go down low?)

* The Vet stays high untill he finds a victim that can't escape, even SpitV's can catch LA-7's  in the right situation. You simply ignore the runners and move on. I think that's a skill many here need to develop and precipitates a lot of the "running" whines.


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Look at Levithan in the SpitV
Look at ManeTMP in the P47
Look at KBMAN in the C-Hog
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Look at my reply to Pongo.

Kbman, Levi, Mane are individuals. Sure, I see them time to time on what they can do. However, whenever I see Levi land a 10+ kill sortie in a SpitV, I also see both enemy and friendly SpitVs near me getting shot down in dozens.

Think about that g00b.

The Spit14, Ta152, F4U-4 are deadly planes and would be sickeningly deadly if they had Levi, Mane, and Kbman for its pilots. True, true. But then again, the same applies to all planes.

We're talking about the general effectiveness of certain perked plane types compared to unperked types of simular performance, not about one potent individual in one plane.

And I say the Spit14 and the Ta152, F4U-4 is no more a 'threat' than the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9, Typh, and Bf109G-10 already is in MA.

*So basically we agree it's the noob's that benefits the most from the fast planes. So lets throw 'em a bone.

*The pro's frequently use slower planes because they're able to extract the benefits of various aircraft. Which may actually make the slower plane better overall. i.e. getting more kills in a C-Hog than a La-7, way more.

* I say you will be wistling another tune when you have an F4U-4 thundering down on you at over 500mph, and you realize that no matter what plane you're in there is no escape. You can only evade untill he makes a mistake, help arrives, or one of you runs out of gas. You'll be extra pissed when his Spit14 buddy comes along to finish you off.

To sum it up, I think the ENY or perk value should be equal to the size of the load in your shorts when you see one above you.

g00b

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Urchin
Most anyone with a half a brain that realizes "Hey.. it really IS mostly the plane..." understands that the La-7 is better than all of our current "perk" planes.  

Hell, for that matter the G-10 is better than all of our current perk planes, except maybe the Tempest.

I realize that the La-7 and 109G-10 are excellent fighters. So, to get some idea of how they stacked up against the perked fighters and the better performers of the MA, I went offline and tested them. Results are a bit different from testing when AH2 first went online, but nothing significant.

Acceleration tests: At 25 feet ASL, accelerate from 200 to 300 mph. I measure low-level acceleration. At medium altitudes, the results will be notably different in several cases. Fuel set for similar range, not weight of fuel.

Your result may be slightly different, but not significantly so.

Climb: At 25 ASL @ steady at 300 mph. Full power with WEP, engage auto-climb to 10,000 feet.

E6B used to set and measure speeds.

Results of acceleration rounded to nearest 0.5 second.

Tempest: 27.0 seconds
F4U-4: 30.0 seconds
109G-10: 30.0 seconds
La-7: 30.5 seconds
SpitXIV: 30.5 seconds
190D-9: 32.0 seconds
Ki-84: 35.0 seconds
P-38J/L: 38.0 seconds
Yak-9U: 38.0 seconds
P-51D: 39.0 seconds
P-47D-40 43.5 seconds

We see that the Tempest has an advantage, albeit not great. The next 4 can be considered a dead heat. The Dora isn't far behind and would overtake the Spit before long. The other four will pull away, at least until they run out of WEP. If speed from 150 to 250 mph were the test, the Ki-84 would win that race, edging out the 109G-10. We can see that the P-38J/L (virtually no difference in performance) is the best accelerating USAAF fighter, about dead even with the Yak-9U. We then see the P-51D close behind, with the big Jug trailing by a significant distance.


Results of climb to 10k rounded to nearest second.
Minutes:seconds
109G-10: 1:56 Baseline
SpitfireXIV: 1:58 -2 seconds
F4U-4: 2:01 -5 seconds
Ki-84: 2:05 -9 seconds
Tempest: 2:07 -11 seconds
P-38J/L: 2:08 -12 seconds
190D-9: 2:09 -13 seconds
La-7: 2:12 -16 seconds
Yak-9U: 2:20 -24 seconds
P-47D-40: 2:23 -27 seconds
P-51D: 2:25 -29 seconds

As you can see, little differs between the 109G-10, SpitXIV and F4U-4 in terms of climb. Weight of fuel is more significant for the F4U than the other two. As fuel burns down, the F4U shows a greater increase in climb than the G-10 and SpitXIV. With 25% in each, the grouping among the three is even tighter.

Note that the Tempest will have problems with the P-38J/L and especially with the Ki-84 in a straight climb. Again, fuel load can reverse the order of the three.

The La-7 is out of its element once it climbs above 5k, where climb begins to drop off rather quickly. At 10k, the La-7 will have a hard time with most of the fighters tested. Go higher and it gets worse. Clearly, the Lavochkin is the super-duper weedwacker....

Note that the P-47D-40 beats the P-51D to 10k.

Fuel was allocated as follows; loads I use in the MA for each if flying no more than 1 sector. If going further, I will add a single drop tank (or load a pair, and drop off one), except for the Yak which obviously must go to 100% internal.

Tempest: 75%
F4U-4: 75%
109G-10: 75%
La-7: 100%
SpitXIV: 75%
190D-9: 75%
Ki-84: 50%
P-38J/L: 50%
Yak-9U: 75%
P-51D: 50%
P-47D-40 75%

My regards,

Widewing

[Mugzeee]

LOL...oppisite aproach = Same result.
 The problem is that if this yellow ball...or you red ball (you other Perk Agenda) get's rolling...there is no stoping point. It would go on and on and on and ............................. .... Kinda like your post.
This time could be spent building perk points for that elite bird of prey.

[hubsonfire]

I want my 2 hours back. This was a near total waste of time. I do however, think this would be a great thread for

WWW.FURBALLUNDERGROUND.COM

[Kweassa]

Please... Both these planes can engage and disengage at will vs any plane in the game. Only the La7, G10, and P-51 are even close and the LA7 can't follow over 10k, the G10 can't turn with either plane, and P-51 suffers in the climb dept.

No other planes give the pilot such impunity save for the 262 and 163.

 You're right g00b.

 But both in real life and the MA, fights go downwards, not upwards. Climb is at best a temporary aide to escape, or reposition oneself to better E status - which is easily neutralized if a superior low-alt performer chooses not to follow but runs away to deck.

 High-alt performance and climb capability was an important factor in real life because the Luftwaffe's main target was strategic bombers, which began flying higher and higher as the war went on.

 However, things were very different in the Eastern Front where tactical scale battles were much more frequent, and planes contested for local air-superiorities rather than the "buff/buff escort vs interceptor/interceptor escort" combo as seen in the Western Front.

 Of the two, which does the MA resemble more? Definately the Eastern Front.

again... true... perk the P47! Or de-perk the 152, I think you're right, they're roughly equivalent aircraft all in all. The buff pilots may whine about it though.

 I'd rather see the Ta152 deperked!

I think the most "important" is actually climb/acceleration. The P-51d is poor in both areas. It also has average turning ability. I think it's rated fine as is. I have very few deaths against P-51's in the last couple tours, as a matter of fact, ship gunners have more kills on me.

 How about a 1:1 comparison, Ta152 and P-51D side by side?

*Speed: P-51D is superior at all alts upto 26k. Over 26k the Ta152 comes faster.

*Climb: P-51D is superior at all alts, except at a short gap between 6k~10k, where the Ta152 outclimbs the P-51D by 200fpm max.

*Maneuverability: P-51D is vastly superior over the Ta152H. (The Ta152H is a little bit superior to the Fw190D-9)

*Handling: The P-51D is above average in all 3 axises at all speeds. The Ta152H is light in pitch control at all speeds, but roll rate suffers at high speeds. Both planes have dangers of structural failure when handled roughly at very high speeds.

*Acceleration: The Ta152H is slightly faster than the P-51D from 150mph to 300mph. Above 300mph to both plane's max speed at given alt, the P-51D is superior.

*Range: The Ta152H-1 flies slightly loner than the P-51D with internal fuel load. The P-51D flies longer than the Ta152 when both planes equip DTs.

*Guns: 6x .50cal package vs 2x20mm/1x30mm. The Ta152H has superior guns.

*Ordnace: Ta152H is capable of carrying one bomb(500kg) in the center line. The P-51D carries max 1000lbsx2 bombs and 6xHVAR 5" rockets.


 If the P-51D isn't perked, at least in terms of performance, the Ta152H should not be either.

The Vet stays high untill he finds a victim that can't escape, even SpitV's can catch LA-7's in the right situation. You simply ignore the runners and move on. I think that's a skill many here need to develop and precipitates a lot of the "running" whines.

 I think that's why many of the vets are so angry with the MA of now as opposed to the MA of the old days. Too many planes they have to just 'ignore'.

I say you will be wistling another tune when you have an F4U-4 thundering down on you at over 500mph, and you realize that no matter what plane you're in there is no escape. You can only evade untill he makes a mistake, help arrives, or one of you runs out of gas. You'll be extra pissed when his Spit14 buddy comes along to finish you off.

 Frankly, that's of no concern. I already can't escape any of the La-7s when I'm in a Fw190A. The only times I actually escape is when I grab the plane of simular performance like the Bf109G-10 or Fw190D-9.

 At least if there are free F4U-4s, we'd be seeing a lot of F4U-4s fighting a lot of La-7s too(if, the F4U-4 also comes that popular).

 Same results, but a little more variation.

 That's good enough for me.

[68DevilM]

Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H

all these planes in most cases can out climb alot of others, or out turn, are you baseing your conclusions on just speed or are you takeing other factors  in consideration as well?

[68DevilM]

Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H

all these planes in most cases can out climb alot of others, or out turn, are you baseing your conclusions on just speed or are you takeing other factors  in consideration as well?

[Nomak]

I hate to disagree with my squadmates who are quite inflamed about this .......

I think it is a good idea.  I dont see the harm in it at all.

I have to admit that almost all of the time when I see a post by Kweassa I simply ignore it and move on to the next post.  This is due to its almost always obsene length and due to Kweassa always comming off to me as "Look how smart I am..... My post is huge"

Not this time.  I think his arguement is well thought out, well presented and should at least be given a try.

I also give him props for keeping his cool while taking some fairly personal attacks in this thread.

More planes are a good thing.  I dont think that anyone really belives that the TA152/Spit14/F4U4 will unbalance the arena.  

If they do so be it.  Go back to some perks on those rides.  All he is asking for is a try..... I dont see the harm.

I for one am tired of the same birds always being perked.  The system could use a shake up.  Again more planes to choose from is a good thing not a bad thing.

Kweassa

c yas up.... Dave

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Nomak
I hate to disagree with my squadmates who are quite inflamed about this .......

I think it is a good idea.  I dont see the harm in it at all.

I have to admit that almost all of the time when I see a post by Kwessa I simply ignore it and move on to the next post.  This is due to its almost always obsene length and due to Kwessa always comming off to me as "Look how smart I am..... My post is huge"

Not this time.  I think his arguement is well thought out, well presented and should at least be given a try.

I also give him props for keeping his cool while taking some fairly personal attacks in this thread.

More planes are a good thing.  I dont think that anyone really belives that the TA152/Spit14/F4U4 will unbalance the arena.  

If they do so be it.  Go back to some perks on those rides.  All he is asking for is a try..... I dont see the harm.

I for one am tired of the same birds always being perked.  The system could use a shake up.  Again more planes to choose from is a good thing not a bad thing.

Kwessa

c yas up.... Dave

 Nice Response Nomak,  and I am in agreement with every bit of it, including how cool headed Kweassa has remained with all the garbage / flaming type post people have throwed at him. Seems everytime he post someone is trying to figure out a way to slam his ideas or hijack his thread with flamebait.............