Question to Finns

[Boroda]

Toad, if you flew NSA missions - then I understand why you have to post all this stuff here

Again, last year US/NATO military planes violated the airspace of Russian Federation at least 100 times. Any of that "doves of peace" was a legal target for PVO.

It's a weel-known fact that US used civilian planes as recon-drones for provocations to reveal Soviet air-defence system. Also they used this planes as shields for spy-planes.

Sept. 1983 provocation ended up in at least 3 "blue" side planes shot, and maybe up to 2 Soviet interceptors lost. Various evidence is availible, including Japanese radar tapes and other radio-interception material.

It is a fact that a plane shot by Osipovich over Moneron island didn't have passengers on board. Only brand-new stuff from supermarkets, like shoes with laces tied together in pairs, shirts with cardboard inside and cellophane wraps, etc.

If the real KAL-007 full of people was shot down - then it's still a big question, what side shot it down and where. Japanese tracking station (sorry I don't know proper English terms, you can ask Estel for corrections) logs contradict official version. Many Western researchers think that it was "blue" side responsible, not "red". At the time KAL007 was shot - it was out of reach for Soviet PVO aviation according to some sources.

Toad, when I hear about "Soviets violating US airspace" - I always see the same photo of Tu-95s escorted by F-14s OTW to Cuba IIRC. If Soviet planes violated American airspace - you had all the rights to shoot them down. Knowing American attitude to such affairs and their urge for at least some truth in their propaganda agenda - your side never could afford to miss such a chance.

OTOH - if any Soviet plane on a recon mission at US border was shot down - Soviet side had to conceal such an accident by all means. This was just how the things worked here.

Also you are welcome to comment on American planes attacks on Soviet airfields and other objects, like on the Sukhaya Rechka airfield in Summer 1950. Your aerial pirates burned several Soviet planes on the ground, fortunately noone was killed. Also I want to hear your opinion on US carrier-based planes attacks on Soviet interceptors in international airspace in Far East, when Soviet pilots were shot down before even getting a permission to open fire and fight back.
Toad, you have to admit that you were a disposable pawn in what can be called a most dirty game of provocations in human history. Sorry.

[Boroda]

To Nekto:

Моя аська - 4627619. Стучись, я буду на работе ещё полчасика. Я в инвизе всегда, так что просто брось записку. Хорошая компашка подобралась

Квака, похоже, действительно сидит под подпиской и вякнуть не может лишнего - родина свободы, бубёныть...

[Boroda]

Забыл: ты, блин, опередил меня с аватаром!!! Никогда не прощу!!!

Я ж в натуре поллитрук

[straffo]

Boroda can you please look at this thread and clear the colour trouble Greebo has ?

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146393

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Boroda
Again, last year US/NATO military planes violated the airspace of Russian Federation at least 100 times. Any of that "doves of peace" was a legal target for PVO.

It's a weel-known fact that US used civilian planes as recon-drones for provocations to reveal Soviet air-defence system. Also they used this planes as shields for spy-planes.

...and soviets/russians have done exactly the same things.
Even on the finnish border, thats how I know.

[Raven_2]

Well, maybe this wouldn`t be a news for you, but I learn that Smolenskiy NKVD archive goes to nazi in 1940 and then was captured by USA, in 1945. All info on "Katyn murder" - official documents, orders and so on (if they exist) should be at USA already, since 1945. But why then USA don`t gave this archive to Poland already?

What do you think on this, Toad? Did you know this?

Why they hide it? Maybe cause there is no evidience in this docs? Or maybe USA just don`t want blame Stalin? :-)

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Fishu
...and soviets/russians have done exactly the same things.
Even on the finnish border, thats how I know.

Then you had all the rights to shoot them down. Seriously.

The reason there were so few US planes shot in Soviet airspace was the extremely long chain of command, so usually Sovet interceptor pilots didn't receive orders to open fire on invaders.

And now we are "friends" (on paper, because US commits hostile acts against Russia, like hosting Chechen terrorist leaders), so it's inappropriate to stop our "friends" from flying where they want. I love modern politics.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Boroda
Then you had all the rights to shoot them down. Seriously.

yeah and get whole lot of **** on us.
They haven't usually crossed the border though, but been coming fast towards and then at the very last second avoided it or kept flying along the border.
I hear some have made some brief visits across the border and as soon as the came, back to other side.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Fishu
yeah and get whole lot of **** on us.
They haven't usually crossed the border though, but been coming fast towards and then at the very last second avoided it or kept flying along the border.
I hear some have made some brief visits across the border and as soon as the came, back to other side.

This is the same problem: where are the limits of what "friends" are allowed to do...

If they didn't cross the border - there was no airspace violation. Such maneuvers performed by US planes (including Toad's) are not even counted here.

One of the reasons why KAL007 was shot was that they entered Soviet airspace for the first time at the place and course used weekly by RC-135s, a so-called "S" maneuver, that kept them unpunished - no serious objects below and interceptor bases far enough for them to choose time so they were out of Soviet airspace when interceptors arrive, even if the crews were on "alert number one", waiting in cockpits for "green flare". Korean Boeing came at same place with same course, PVO didn't react because they knew the usual trick, and only when it crossed Kamchatka they suspected something wrong and began to track him...

Damn, looks like I compete with Tolstoy in sentence length

It's interesting that Toad and some Soviet posters here have 100% different approach. Toad - an airman who went on missions violating Soviet airspace, and most of us here are connected to PVO. Toad's goals were to open a path for bombers coming in to burn our cities. Our goals were to stop them by all means. Did I tell you that at my military education I was told that our S-200 SAMs were first targets for Minutemen after ICBM silos?... Quite easy to believe. Anyway we couldn't fire more the a few dozen missiles without assemblying more out of storage containers...

[mora]

Originally posted by Boroda
[B Did I tell you that at my military education I was told that our S-200 SAMs were first targets for Minutemen after ICBM silos?... Quite easy to believe. Anyway we couldn't fire more the a few dozen missiles without assemblying more out of storage containers... [/B]

Not discounting what you are saying... But that kind of stories to so many military personnel around the world. "When a war breaks out you have xxx seconds to live". This seems apply at least to radar and missile operators, missile surveyors and even coastal look outs.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by mora
Not discounting what you are saying... But that kind of stories to so many military personnel around the world. "When a war breaks out you have xxx seconds to live". This seems apply at least to radar and missile operators, missile surveyors and even coastal look outs.

Maybe. But it's reasonable. Long-range SAM brigade, capable of launching nuclear-tipped SAMs. With a developed echeloned air-defence structure - BM hit is the easiest way to get it off the way of the invading bombers. Plus S-200 isn't "portable", it can't be moved into "ambush" position in reasonable period of time.

And I am sure that it was not proved, I doubt that USSR had US ICBM target lists I laugh at Euro guys who tell me "how many Soviet nukes were aimed at their country" that can be crossed on foot in several hours

Coastal look outs - it sounds nice I think that if the enemy CV group is seen by coastal look-outs it's already a little too late

[Toad]

OK, I've been away and I see the BS has been flowing out of the Stalinists.

I'll just hit a few of the high points.

Genozaur:  If you dig a quater-inch deeper into the literature published in the United States of America, you'll easily find out that the chief pilot on this flight was a CIA-paid guy, and parallel to "KAL" was flying (but outside the Soviet airspace though twice closer than you did) a true American spy plane, with the American spy satellite right above them all.

[/b]

You don't know what your are talking about. While I was out of the AF when this happened, I still had close personal friends in the RC unit and on the crew that was in the area that night.

You are simply wrong.

And, like Katyn, the true story of KAL 007 is available from many sources. Also like Katyn, it's another example of Soviet brutality.

Same for you Raven. I'm certain I know more about what happened that night than you ever will. Simply because I know the men who were actually out there.

show that Osipovich could not identify the plane

LOFL! Is there any aircraft in the world that is more recognizable than a B-747? What a load of horsecrap...this is either the world's first blind fighter pilot or the stupidest man in the Soviet Air Force.

Boroda:

Toad, if you flew NSA missions - then I understand why you have to post all this stuff her

[/b]

NSA directed ALL reconnaissance at the strategic level. I don't have to post anything; my country is not like your country. I haven't ever talked to anyone from NSA since I got out. Now that 10+ years have passed I can say anything I want to say.. or not.

If Soviet planes violated American airspace - you had all the rights to shoot them down. Knowing American attitude to such affairs and their urge for at least some truth in their propaganda agenda - your side never could afford to miss such a chance

[/b]

No, we didn't shoot them down. Had we shot any down, the press would have reported it.

Soviets murdered airmen in International airspace though, lots of them.

Published Cold War Shoot Down Incidents

Raven:What do you think on this, Toad? Did you know this?

Why they hide it? Maybe cause there is no evidience in this docs? Or maybe USA just don`t want blame Stalin? :-)

[/b]

Exactly.

American President Franklin D. Roosevelt was unwilling to accept the validity of the Nazis' charges.  When Captain George Earle, a personal friend of Roosevelt and a former naval attache to Bulgaria, later expressed to the president his desire to publish evidence implicating the Soviets (which he had received in Sofia), Roosevelt gave him a written order not to do so.  

After Earle indicated he might "go public" about Katyn anyway, he was soon there-after abruptly and otherwise inexplicably posted to the Samoan Islands for the remainder of the Second World War.22

Originally posted by Boroda
One of the reasons why KAL007 was shot was that they entered Soviet airspace for the first time at the place and course used weekly by RC-135s, a so-called "S" maneuver,

LOL!

"S maneuver?"

Describe it... I flew literally hundreds of missions and I sure never did any "s maneuver".

We didn't enter Soviet Airspace under ICAO definition. We were almost double the ICAO limits outside of it.

The truth is out there.... you guys have access to it. Educate yourselves.

You've been given more than enough information to find it.

[Fishu]

I think they're just drowning into the information flood.
After all the one sided information, they got all sorts of stuff coming in..  its hard to digest all that in just few years.
Especially hard to digest when some sources claims the USSR wasn't so sunny place after all.

[Toad]

They are drowning in a flood of their own bull****.

As they always say, one lie leads to another... and they've got 90+ years of lies drowning them.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Boroda
Did I tell you that at my military education I was told that our S-200 SAMs were first targets for Minutemen after ICBM silos?... Quite easy to believe.

Let's see...
 
(1) hit their offensive capability, ie. the ability to destroy the american targets at which Soviet ICBM's were aimed.

(2) destroy their capability to hit our aircraft by destroying SAM's

... my, my, my, how barbaric ...