Question to Finns

[Naso]

Than was called Cold War, mr.Raven, did anyone informed you it's over?

Well...

AFAIK.

[Raven_2]

>>Than was called Cold War, mr.Raven, did anyone informed you it's over?

>>The next JIC estimate of the Soviet Union, JIC 329, written only two months after the official cessation of hostilities against Japan

USSR treat USA as ally at that time. Cold War started later. At least, from Soviet side.

USSR lost 23 million people in WW2. There were femine. Most of the country infrastucture were destroyed. USSR worked on up back to it feets. And USA, this so called "ally" wanted to destroy PEOPLE (not government or military - PEOPLE) at that time.

Only reason for that, cause USA was the only country, were infratructure weren`t touched by war. So, they wanted to be No 1. And USSR was only obstacle on this way. So, they wanted to destroy USSR - at all. Not communism, but all USSR people, all USSR potential.

Bah. I forgot. Mass killing of civilians are usual thing for USA...

[Toad]

Mora

Originally posted by Boroda
Did I tell you that at my military education I was told that our S-200 SAMs were first targets for Minutemen after ICBM silos?...

Yes, the B-52's had cruise missiles as well and some of those probably were targeted at key points in the air defence cammand and control system.

However, I seriously doubt we targeted Minutemen against individual SAM sites; it's preposterous. There were much more important targets for those.. I think it is somewhat doubtful they targeted individual SAM sites with Cruise Missiles; there were better targets for those as well.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad

Toad, you missed one of my posts :-) I repeat myself....

...And, let me guess: you still deny this, yes?

I didn't miss it. It's just more BS.

Did you know the Russian Federation handed over the CVR and FDR (black boxes) of KAL 007 to the South Korean government on November 20, 1992? The FDR tape was missing. on January 8, 1993, the Russian Federation handed over the FDR tape to  the ICAO. The ICAO released their report on June 12, 1993.

Once again, the rest of the world KNOWS what happened to KAL 007.

You don't, because you keep swallowing the lies you been fed over and over.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>I didn't miss it. It's just more BS.

So, USA Informain Agency is a source of all BS? `cause this words belongs to it director.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
In other words - you were seeking fro possible routes for your bombers to bring nukes to Soviet cities. Cities were (and still are) your main targets, because nuclear weapons are relatively ineffective against military targets.

Peacefull intentions, indeed.

[/b]

Nope. It was Mutual Assured Destruction, surely you've heard of it. It kept you Soviets from doing to the rest of Europe what your army did to Berlin and it's women in the closing days of WW2. It worked too.

 

What are the "other means"? Carpet bombing as usual?

[/b]

There are both active and passive means to deal with SAM sites. Or didn't you know that?  Using an ICBM on an individual SAM site? A waste of resources. We had other stuff to handle that.

Your attempts to present your losses over Soviet land as "Soviet barbarians shooting down American birds of peace in international airspace" are ridiculous.

Some US aircraft had strayed into Soviet airspace as defined by ICAO rules. The Soviets shot them down. A Soviet aircraft landed in Alaska during the Cold War; the USAF refueled the aircraft, fed the crew, gave them the opportunity to rest and let them go on their way.

Big difference, eh? I documented that incident a long time ago on this very board when we had this discussion before.

OTOH, very many if not MOST of the US aircraft shot down by the Sovets were in ICAO International Airspace. Like Katyn, that was murder. Don't even try to pretend all the aircraft you shot down were in your airspace; it's just another lie.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
Again - if Soviet recon planes violated American airspace - US had all the rights to shoot them down.

But of course when presented with that option, we did not. We escorted them out of our airspace. Further, we didn't shoot down aircraft in International airspace.

The Soviets, of course, shot down aircraft both in Russian airpsace and International airspace.

And you wonder why the rest of the world thinks you're barbarians.

Duh!

[Raven_2]

Toad, heard anything about NSC derictive 20/1 (18 august 1948) "Objectives with respect to Russia"?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2

"Allies"... Make gain on others blood. A main strategy of USA.

[/b]


No, the "allies" had decided to stop you Soviets from raping any more of the world than you already had.


"...[in] the event of hostilities in Europe or on the mainland of Asia (Korea),

Raven:

Fckng USA bastards... Wanna burn > 13.000.000 people just "to destroy Red Alert"...

[/b]

No we were ready to stop you from enslaving anymore countries though. Using whatever means necessary.

The world decided your enslavement of Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia was enough.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Toad

>>I didn't miss it. It's just more BS.

So, USA Informain Agency is a source of all BS? `cause this words belongs to it director.

Again, I my military service was IN the RC-135 squadron that recorded the Russian radio transmissions during the KAL 007 incident. My close friends were ON that mission.

Again, the KAL 007 "black boxes" were handed over to the ICAO by the Russian Federation. The world KNOWS what happened.

You, on the other hand, continue to lie to yourself about the murder of the people on KAL 007 and the murder of the Polish POWs at Katyn.

[Raven_2]

Toad, still you didn`t answer on my question directly. This words by USA IA director is lie? Soviet propaganda? Or what?

[Raven_2]

to Toad

The "Fraeulein's" lack of cooperation was no obstacle for the troops under General Eisenhowers command. According to testimony given in the US Senate on 07-17-'45, when French Colonial troops, under Eisenhowers command, entered the city of Stuttgart they herded German women into the subway tunnels and proceeded to rape about 2000 of them. Even a PM reporter " reluctantly confirmed the story in its major details". (See Peace Action, July 1945)

Is there any prove (except this Beevor guy) that all german rapes were did by Soviet troops?

[Raven_2]

to Toad

The US forces under the command of General McArthur landed in Yokosuka port, in Kanagawa Prefecture, Japan, on August 30, 1945. 315 cases of rape by US soldiers were reported to the authorities on that day, in Kanagawa Prefecture alone, The next day, on August 31st, there were 228 cases of rape. By September 10th, a total of 1326 cases of rape by US soldiers were reported in Kanagawa Prefecture. There were also numerous cases of homicide. Most such cases went unpunished.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

And check this about all your "Soviet rapers" BS:
http://www.argo.net.au/andre/osmarwhiteENFIN.htm

It`s from australian war correspondent. He been there.

There is no reign of terror in Prague or any part of Bohemia. Russians are stern realists with the collaborator and the fascist element, but a man whose conscience can go without fear.

The discipline of the Red Army is good. There is no more looting, rape or bullying that in any zone of occupation. Wild stories of brutality arise from magnification and distortion of individual instances, given verisimilitude by the Czechs’ nervousness of the Russian soldiers’ exuberant manners and their liking for vodka… One woman who told me the most hair-rising tales of Russian brutality in Prague was forced in the end to admit that the only evidence she had seen with her own eyes was drunken Russian officers firing pistols into he air or shooting at bottles.

The most objective account of Russian behavior came from a middle-aged woman. I took notes of the interview:

Q: You say the Russians behaved very brutally after the fighting. What do you mean by "brutally"?
A: They looted houses, shot anyone who resisted them, and attacked women. They lost all control.

Q: What happened when they looted a house? Can you tell me about a house you saw looted? Did they loot your house?
A: yes, all these flats were looted. After the firing stopped up the street, ten or eleven soldiers came up the stairs and started kicking and beating on the doors. We were afraid to open, so, they broke the locks or kicked them down.

Q: Then what happened?
A: they looked everywhere to see if there were any arms or snipers. Than some of them started pulling open drawers and throwing things about, and others attacked the women.

Q: What do you mean by "attacked"? did they rape the women?
A: Mostly, yes.

Q: All of them? Did all the Russian soldiers rape, or try to rape the women?
A: Not all – most of them. They were drunk. They had bottles of brandy and wine and they were excited – you understand how it would be.

Q: How many women were in this building?
A: There were eight of us, I think. Three were in my flat with me.

Q: Were you raped?
A: No. One of them came at me, but I speak a little Russian and I told him he was drunk and a disgrace to his country. I told him to tell the others to leave the women alone.

Q: Did that stop him?
A: Yes. He was only a boy. He seemed ashamed, but he took all my clothes out of the drawers and wardrobes. He said the Germans had taken all the Russian women’s clothes in 1941, so he didn’t see why he shouldn’t have what he wanted. I didn’t try to stop him.

Q: Didn’t he try to stop the others?
A: they were all drunk. The Russians are terrible when they are drunk. You have no idea what they are like.

Q: How do you know the other women were raped?
A: I saw a Russian rape my friend.

Q: Violently.
A: yes.

Q: But did you actually see what happened to the others?
A: No, but there was no doubt about it. They weren’t lying. It really happened, I assure you.

Q: Wasn’t this just another isolated instance?
A: No, it happened all over Berlin. I am not exaggerating. It really happened. At least half the young women in Berlin have been raped by Russians. The trouble went on for days after the fighting stopped.

Q: Did the Russian officers not try to control their troops?
A: Of course. Most of the officers were very nice. If you could only get to an officer you were usually all right. We heard that some of the soldiers had been caught in the act and shot. But it was no good complaining. If the officers didn’t see it, they wouldn’t believe.

Q: When did this sort of behavior stop?
A: It never did stop entirely. The trouble was the wine and brandy stocks. They should have been destroyed. The troops would get drunk at night and the trouble would start up all over again. They were only really bad when they were drunk. They were different when you got to know them. We were lucky in this district – we had one lot for ten days billeted in this house. We were sorry to see them go, because we were afraid of what would happen when a new lot came in. They were childish, really. Sometimes after trouble they would come in the morning and apologise and ask you not to tell. They would give you some food, just to be friendly and make amends.

Q: You said people were shot. Did you actually see any cases of civilians being shot?
A: A woman I knew up the street was killed.

Q: Did you see her body?
A: yes. Her sister and I buried her in the garden.

Q: Why was she shot?
A: The Russians thought she had a revolver.

Q: had she a revolver?
A: No. She had no revolver.

Baffling people, these Russians! Rape and apology. Theft atoned by gifts of food. The savage sacking of a blasted city and, within days, attempts to rehabilitate it…

[Raven_2]

to Toad

After more than half a century, facts about a grim chapter of World War II history are coming to light: the widespread rape by American military servicemen of local women on the Pacific island of Okinawa. The discovery in 1998 of the bones of three wartime US Marine Corps men, each one 19 years old and black, has -- according to a New York Times report (June 1, 2000) -- "refocused attention on what historians say is one of the most widely ignored crimes of the war, the widespread rape of Okinawan women by American servicemen."

More than 200,000 soldiers and civilians, including one-third of the population of Okinawa, were killed in the April-June 1945 battle for the Pacific island.

As many as 10,000 Okinawan women may have been raped, one scholar estimates. Rape was so prevalent in the months following US subjugation of the island that most Okinawans over age 65 either know or have heard of a woman who was raped in the aftermath of the war. Marine Corps officials say they have no records of such mass rapes, but books, diaries, newspaper articles and other documents refer to rapes by American soldiers of various races and backgrounds. Apparently few if any Okinawan women reported being attacked out of fear and embarrassment, and those who did were ignored by the US military police.

The three black Marines whose bones were found in 1998, and who were identified by dental records, were apparently killed by men of the remote Okinawan village of Katsuyama because the three had repeatedly come to their village to rape their women. Elderly Okinawans who grew up in village told a New York Times reporter that three armed Marines would come to Katsuyama every weekend and force the village men to take them to their women, who were then carried off to the hills and raped. One day, villagers, with the help of two armed Japanese soldiers who were hiding in the jungle, ambushed three marines in a mountain pass. They were shot and beaten to death with sticks and stones, and their bodies dumped in a hillside cave. Because the three were black, the cave where their bodies were dumped became known as "Cave of the Negroes."

"It would be unfair for the public to get the impression that we were all a bunch of rapists after we worked so hard to serve our country," says Samuel Saxton, a retired Marine Corps Captain who has an interest in the case. There are no plans to prosecute anyone for the crimes.