Author Topic: How's he do it?  (Read 5296 times)

Offline Howitzer

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How's he do it?
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2005, 04:32:03 PM »
In every game there is someone that just picks it up really quick, and has a great eye for the skills it takes to be a good player.  Don't forget, he's been playing sims for a while and from what I've heard he's been good for a quite a while as well.  I remember back in the days of HalfLife Team Fortress Classic...  There was a guy that used to drive me nuts.  Would be like 123/2 with a sniper rifle.  The man could strafe, jump, run, and fire at the same time and never seem to miss.  SA was unreal.  He wasn't a cheater, he just could anticipate well and had a great feel for the game.

Same goes here.  One night I remember the 4Wing (name of my old squad, alot of the guys are in WoT now) just thumped a base in knightland.  We weren't trying to take it, just annoy whoever was there.  We leveled it, knocked all the fighters down and capped it till we were low on gas.  I think I was in a tiffy.  Levi was way outnumbered and grabbed an La7, I had never seen him fly one, but he did it to catch up with us.  I saw it lift, thought it was a new guy because... well duh, its an la7  :lol  

I turned to fight it, I think it took one turn.... I entered the turn with no damage and when I came out I don't think I had two parts that worked.  I believe he even shot the pieces as they fell off.  

Point is, it isn't the plane, he just can anticipate what you are doing and is great at countering it.  I've seen him land 10+ in a yak just trying it out.  

I did wing with him one night.  He was a rook and I made him my wingman just to see how he flew.  He went away from the horde and engaged a dozen or so cons by himself at their base.  I followed him, but by the time I got there he had half of them dead.  Since it was still 6 on 1, and the others reupping to try again, I jumped in and tried to help.  I got 1 assist and 2 kills.  I'd say he was engaged by 15 planes total...   there were 3 left in the air when he went down, and I followed shortly after.  

Best thing was, there wasn't a word about it on ch.200... he just reupped and went back at it.  He schooled them, he knew it and that was all that mattered.  Good pilot he is.   :aok

Offline eagl

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How's he do it?
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2005, 04:33:21 PM »
Part of the problem is that there have always been "edge conditions" in the flight model in CK, WB, AH, and now AH2, where you can basically trigger between the flight modes.  If you are observant, you can find where those edges are and ride back and forth over them, resulting in occasionally obscene flight behavior.

For some reason I can't even remember anymore, I spent a couple of hours right after AH2 was released finding several of the edges or boundaries in the ground handling model.  These are the same conditions and boundary issues that used to cause planes to slide off the back of the carrier when you released brakes, etc.  As an example, there is a small but measurable throttle band where you can be at idle or near idle, and your friction drag on the ground is increased.  Bump the throttle up even a bit, and that extra drag and ground stability vanishes instantly.  It's nearly impossible to find this edge however unless you turn the wind up pretty high.  To see the edge for yourself, turn the wind up to 80 knots or more, select a zeek, and fly.  Turn the engine on with the throttle in idle.  Then slowly bump up the throttle bit by bit.  At some point, your plane will rocket backwards in a straight line.  If you do it right, you can even bound over the terrain shedding parts until nothing but the fuselage is left, and you'll still be screaming along backwards with the wind pushing you.  Lower the throttle back to idle, and you'll eventually stop.  Push the throttle back up, and you'll rocket backwards again.

In the air, there are some huge holes as well.  I don't know if it's still a problem, but in early AH2 if you took a spit5 up and made a gradual spin entry, you could start and stop the spin "normally" just like it's supposed to work.  But if you entered the spin with an abrupt full aft stick motion, the plane would stop nearly all horizontal motion and fall straight down with no hope of recovery.  I spent 2 days fiddling with this, determining various entry conditions, but I finally gave up because there seemed to be no practical application to just falling out of the sky :)  I just learned that in a spit, don't pull the stick back that quickly or you'll enter this weird hole in the flight model where you fall straight down in a sideways attitude.

The other normal flight, spin entry, spin, and spin exit modes can occasionally be used in fights however.  Back in AH, it was possible to get the P-47 into spin mode and fly it out of the spin without actually triggering the code back to normal flight.  On one occasion, I triggered a P-47 spin and fought my way out of the spin using traditional anti-spin controls but didn't push and hold the stick full forward which was the recovery method HT required to exit spin mode.  That meant that for a while I was flying around at around 250 knots with the plane constantly trying to spin on me.  The nose was all over the place, and I could literally turn on a dime at 250 knots because the spin code was in effect and it wanted to make me spin around.  Fast footwork on the rudders and quick reactions allowed me to keep the plane right on the edge between a left and right hand spin, so I flew around for quite a while like that.  The P-47 was well known for having a tough spin at the time (drex and I won our first con dueling tourny fight that way when both of our opponents spun their p-47s at the merge and spun 10,000 ft without recovering) and that's because the plane would seem to be recovering as you flew out of the spin, but because you didn't hold full fwd stick, the code path never switched from "spin" to "flight" or whatever it is HT calls it, and most players couldn't figure it out and would eventually auger.  Knowing the actual elevator position was the key, but how many people recover from a spin while looking backwards at the tail?

So if you know those boundaries and the rules and conditions required to flip from mode to mode, you can really do some amazing things with the planes and AH flight model.  Most of them are gimmicky and not very useful, but I know that it's been possible to ride the edge of the spin entry in many planes ever since early WB versions to make very quick turns.  Just enter a spin in the direction of spin you desire, and exit it at the right time to fly out heading in the right direction.  Mili's old p-38 flip turn trick was nothing more than riding the spin entry.  The F-4U could do the same thing if you were careful with the power setting, as "byngtn" (hatch) taught me one evening.

For what it's worth, you can make a real life T-37 do the same thing so it's not even unrealistic.  When I was flying the T-37 at Sheppard AFB, I was able to turn the tables several times during instructor continuity training formation rides by causing the plane to *almost* enter a spin, letting it develop just enough to cause the plane to rotate, then recovering at the exact right time with the plane heading in the opposite direction.  If done at the right time in a rolling scissors, the plane would rotate right around to the other plane's 6.  In the F15E we can do a maneuver that is actually pretty similiar to Mili's old P-38 flip turn, making the plane just rotate in mid-air like a controlled spin entry.  It takes intimate knowledge of the aerodynamic capabilities of the plane, just like knowing the details of the AH flight model can let a dedicated player use those flight model features to outfly an opponent.  Do it right and it can save your butt.  Do it wrong and you can auger or fly right in front of the bandit.

It probably sounds like I'm bagging on HT's flight model, but really I'm not.  Real life is full of boundary conditions.  In real life, somewhere between spinning and not spinning, a plane is in a "spin entry".  But at some point the plane is definately in a spin and at some point it's definately recovered.  So knowing how to enter and exit precisely isn't gaming the system, it's just becoming a better flier, the same both in real life and in the game.  I'm not saying that Levi is doing this because I don't know, but I know that most really good players find and exploit some of these boundaries even if they don't know that it is what they're doing.  It's not cheating, it's "max performing" their aircraft, or in this case the flight model HT has given us to play with.  It's a testament to HT and Pyro's skill that most players never know about these boundaries because the transitions are very smooth and invisible unless either you're trained to recognize them or just very observant.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 04:38:56 PM by eagl »
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Offline Killjoy2

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How's he do it?
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2005, 04:35:14 PM »
Somebody has to say it,  Levi is a CHEATER!!!  

There its said.



I notice no one ever calls me a cheater.

Offline g00b

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How's he do it?
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2005, 04:50:07 PM »
So is it realistic? Could a real MKV perform like that?

g00b

Offline eagl

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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2005, 04:51:35 PM »
Dunno.  Buy one and see :)  I'm pretty sure that unless I broke it, doing a snap-roll or abrupt spin entry wouldn't make it fall sideways, straight into the ground, but I could be wrong there too.
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2005, 04:59:15 PM »
Watch the film from a top-down view, if it is possible.  I'd wager you'll see Lev makes at most a 180 degree turn at any given time... you are doing the rest of the turn for him by turning into him.

Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2005, 05:11:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
yes there is mystery or we'd all fly like him



Nope, just takes practice practice practice:D
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Offline Octavius

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How's he do it?
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2005, 05:16:00 PM »
Good observation eagl. :)


As for Levi, what Humble said and Slapshot BINGO !!!'d is pretty much it.

I'm not one to toot my own horn, but I can also do that.  I tend not to get myself in those situations much of the time, so it works out to be quite as efficient in a pack of cons.  I hate to admit this, but snapshots work too well and I tend to despise them :D.  If I'm 1v1, my weakness will be playing with my food.  I can maneuver into a favorable position and saddle up for a nice clean six kill.  This is often my bane, cause when I have a bad gunnery day and I'm flying the P40, many other fighters simply wobble and out accelerate me before I can put bullets on'em!

Situational awareness, E judging, knowing your own status/position/E, knowing the best possible maneuver to maximize your advantage and minimize his opportunities, and consistently melding all of these will get you to his six or set you up for that jaw dropping snapshot nine times out of ten.  You know where your enemy(s) are, where they will be, and how to give them the worst possible angles, while at the same time, working yourself into a favorable position.

Goob, in that film he executed the best possible maneuver in that mini-scissors to give him a quick snapshot.  The Hispanos are snapshot factories, and he hit you passing across his gunsight horizontally.  The way the Spit's hispanos are oriented (wings), that gives him the equivalent of an extended snapshot if you were passing verticaly through the gunsight.  Even before that snap, yanking vertical in ANY close engagement is keen.  In ANY scissors, up is the way to go.  Even if you both stall out in another situation, if you're on top and you're both stalling, you'll stay on top after you both recover.

When ya watch that film, or any film including levi, slow it down a TON.  When you get to the confusing part, get inside his cockpit and look around.  See what he is seeing and figure out why he did what he did.  Most, if not all, of his maneuvers are predicting where you (his opponent) will be in 2, 3, or even 5 seconds time, and blindsiding you in a snapshot before you even get there :D.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 05:18:50 PM by Octavius »
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Offline Redd

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How's he do it?
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2005, 05:20:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by g00b
So is it realistic? Could a real MKV perform like that?

g00b



We'll never know because no-one would have been silly enough to try to fly them like that even if they were capable.
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Offline BALSUR

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How's he do it?
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2005, 05:27:56 PM »
Just remember this simulation isn't about realism. It's a game and like in all games you have those who excell and those who find out later how to excell. I tried the same move and blacked out every time. So, dunno how he does it I just know I can't. :confused:

Offline Octavius

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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2005, 05:30:20 PM »
rudder :)
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Offline 6GunUSMC

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How's he do it?
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2005, 05:48:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
gee don't be so cryptic spit it out.  I say the game can't be cheated.  I also say that Levi is not a cheater and neither is anyone else.


No personal attack here - honest.  But there is NO game on the net made that cannot be hacked nor any game that ISNT being hacked.  I am a C++, J+, VB programmer and network administrator... to say a game cannot is is not being hacked by someone, somewhere is pure fantasy.

BTW I dont believe levi is hacking.... just one helluva turn... possibly a modeling error exploited
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 06:02:13 PM by 6GunUSMC »

Offline Morpheus

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How's he do it?
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2005, 05:49:29 PM »
"there is no spoon" :P
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Offline Howitzer

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How's he do it?
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2005, 05:54:34 PM »
Yeah I just watched the film....

LOL don't think there were many shots taken in WWII like the first pass he hit you with:  90 mph, inverted, tight turn, 20yds off the water and maybe d30 from the enemy plane.  For no other reason than if it were in real life, you'd spend most of your time trying to ignore the stink in your cockpit because you would've crapped your pants at least ten times.  :D

Offline SlapShot

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How's he do it?
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2005, 07:08:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
Who's this Levi fellow you speak of?


He is the "core" of QUAH !!!!
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