Author Topic: How's he do it?  (Read 5297 times)

Offline SLO

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How's he do it?
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2005, 07:27:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
gee don't be so cryptic spit it out.  I say the game can't be cheated.  I also say that Levi is not a cheater and neither is anyone else.



Nothing cryptic about it, since any discussion about cheaters is not welcomed on Dale's BBs, and out of great respect for Skuzzy I choose my words carefully...


But don't assume my young Jedi, there is and always will be that one person...

And no in my eyes Levi is NOT a etc. etc...but a person who spent alot of time in the DA perfecting his moves, same as Wldthing...

But being good at TnB is just a oh so small part of it, now getting 20 guys to do it all at the same time receives my respect, and up to now not many have shown thoose kinds of qualities.

Too many out there to lift only one over everyone else...

Thats my perception...whats yours?

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2005, 07:41:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
So if you know those boundaries and the rules and conditions required to flip from mode to mode, you can really do some amazing things with the planes and AH flight model.  Most of them are gimmicky and not very useful, but I know that it's been possible to ride the edge of the spin entry in many planes ever since early WB versions to make very quick turns.  Just enter a spin in the direction of spin you desire, and exit it at the right time to fly out heading in the right direction.  Mili's old p-38 flip turn trick was nothing more than riding the spin entry.  The F-4U could do the same thing if you were careful with the power setting, as "byngtn" (hatch) taught me one evening.

For what it's worth, you can make a real life T-37 do the same thing so it's not even unrealistic.  When I was flying the T-37 at Sheppard AFB, I was able to turn the tables several times during instructor continuity training formation rides by causing the plane to *almost* enter a spin, letting it develop just enough to cause the plane to rotate, then recovering at the exact right time with the plane heading in the opposite direction.  If done at the right time in a rolling scissors, the plane would rotate right around to the other plane's 6.  In the F15E we can do a maneuver that is actually pretty similiar to Mili's old P-38 flip turn, making the plane just rotate in mid-air like a controlled spin entry.  It takes intimate knowledge of the aerodynamic capabilities of the plane, just like knowing the details of the AH flight model can let a dedicated player use those flight model features to outfly an opponent.  Do it right and it can save your butt.  Do it wrong and you can auger or fly right in front of the bandit.


Excellent reply eagl.

Those of you who are more than a little familiar with the AH2 P-38 and F4U know that you can ride both deep into a spin, getting some remarkable rotation, and then abruptly stop the rotation. You have to be careful not to ride in too deep, or over-correct coming out. So, it takes good feel for it and no small amount of practice. I had Fubar616 drop his spitV on my six one evening in the TA. He was quite surprised at how slow you can maneuver the F4U, riding spin entry and using ragged edge, full flap, side slips to spoil shots and give the worst possible angles. I have been able to get rotations in excess of 90 degrees at 60 mph with the F4U-1 and not lose it. I'm sure it looks like some cheat when you see a wing dip and it pivots almost in place. You need to practice this if you are maneuvering at low speeds and low altitudes. There's not much room for error on the deck. As for the P-38, it's basically the same, only a tad slower and easier due to the relative lack of torque. G00b, try this and you'll see how fast you can rotate the nose (remember that rudder is the key). Also, rudder can greatly increase roll rate at the cost of speed and usually with considerable yaw (not always a bad thing if you know how to use it). Try flying in the TA using the external view to observe the aircraft's motion. Then jump back inside and practice some more.

As to strange things in the FM; I've posted a film of my flying the Ki-84 off a CV, and the carrier moves out ahead of the plane!! Nose high, flaps out, hanging on the prop, using rudder to keep from dropping off on a wing. After about 10 seconds, you need to ease off the backpressure, or you will backslide and nosewhip it into the sea. But for those precious seconds, it was amazing.

That strange flat, non-rotating stall is certainly an FM problem. I think the worst case aircraft for this is the Mosquito.

G00b, that little maneuver of Leviathn's is terrific. I've seen him do quite a lot over the past three years. My nephew was playing a few months back and he goes roaring in after a Seafire. Lev does his little break, climbing reverse and whacks him. I had him running film. I may still have it.

Notice that a whole bunch of guys came blasting thru, and all missed the slow Spitfire. I think Leviathn had his shields up....

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Mime

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How's he do it?
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2005, 09:14:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moose

i wonder who would win in a 1v1 - dmf or drex..  :cool:


NathBDP

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2005, 09:34:26 PM »
Must have missed that one...  

My vote would go to Lev, by a landslide.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2005, 09:56:00 PM »
I mentioned flying and maneuvering the F4U-1 at extrememly low speeds. I filmed about 12 minutes of low speed maneuvering, including full side-slip flybys, flying well into a spin and stopping rotation. Using rudder to rotate the aircraft relative to direction of travel and flying at speeds as low as 30 mph. Using torque to roll the aircraft out of a severe nose-high stall. There's all sorts of things you can do with the "Ensign Eliminator" that will confound the guy you're fighting.

Unfortunately, AH films do not show rudder deflection. This is a 2 meg download, zipped. I strongly suggest watching the film from the chase view initially to get the best aspect.

Get it here

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline moose

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How's he do it?
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2005, 10:07:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mime
NathBDP


add citabria into that mix and you'd have one awesome furball
<----ASSASSINS---->

Offline g00b

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« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2005, 10:22:37 PM »
Well I did some post-stall flight testing in a Citabria today :D  I could keep it nose high with the stick in my lap and semi-controllable by stomping on the rudder well into the stall. But I was unable to get much yaw out of it, it really just wants to drop a wing and roll over, not turn on a dime. I also think that the Citabria has much better low speed handling than your average WWII fighter. Kinda apples to oranges though. I wonder if AH2 models aileron reveral at stall speeds (I don't think so), that might be part of what's missing in the equation.

Anywho, an informative and lively discussion with remarkably little trolling.

g00b

P.S. Levi Hax!    :lol

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2005, 10:36:39 PM »
I don't think that AH models any kind of control reversal at any speed.

Offline mars01

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« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2005, 11:05:43 PM »
Hey goob,

Could it be that the good slow flight characteristics are detrimental to puilling those kind of manuvers.

Meaning if it has good stall characteristics, unlike the corsair, then it is harder to get it to break and swing the way the planes with poor slow flight chasracteristics do.

Then if the plane has good recovery characteristics it is easier to recover from such a move and whip it around.

BTW Goob thanks for making it a WMF.

Lev you SOB, true poetry in motion.  Just plain beautiful.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 11:14:17 PM by mars01 »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2005, 04:57:33 AM »
What seems to happen in these games is what has already been described further up. ^ The game flight model perhaps has flaws which people learn to exploit. In WB, 190s used to be able to dive to cherrypick, and reach speeds well above what would have been VNE for that plane, without structural damage. Another dubious quirk was planes doing very hard turns with the greatest of ease - a scenario which failed to take account of how much force the pilot would have been needed to apply to  the stick to make those turns, and the G forces he would have to endure as a result.  In RL, a pilot would get very tired very quickly doing the stuff that goes on in these games.

Three other very grey areas in AH1 were the helicopter defence move, the ability to keep full control of the plane while blacked out (and maintain a hard turn) and the 800yd spray shots. These were completely changed for AH2 in the name of progress, and rightly so. But here as in WB all those years ago, there would be protest at the changes, account cancellations etc. The only reason I can think of was that people had learned to exploit these tricks, and their game fell apart when said tricks were no longer available.

For all these reasons, I never took the FM of these games that seriously. I'm not interested in gamey tricks; I'm interested in how it would have been in RL.

I do remember running into Urchin & Leviathn, soon after AH2 had been deployed. There was a 2v2 going on, and as I got there it became 3v2. Urchin was in a P47 and Levi was in a Spit - I assume it was a V. I bounced Urchin in my F4U, but he evaded at the last second, then realigned and landed pings on me at 600yd+. In AH1, I'd have been dead because (IMO) dispersion wasn't modelled accurately in AH1. But I survived, and one of the others got Urchin. That left Levi, who was just making one of his hard turns to acquire one of my friends. Unfortunately for Levi, that turn gave me a nice planform view of his Spit, and I blasted him. I wouldn't have thought anything of it, but for the fact that my text buffer was awash with white text. "Your buddy did all the work for you"; "If he hadn't been there, you'd have been dead"; "You screwed up on that 2nd pass"; "If your aunt had had balls, she'd have been your uncle" etc. etc. LOL. For the life of me, I can't remember who the other two guys were. We all went our separate ways after that.

What's that instruction written on fireworks? Light blue touchpaper, and retire immediately! I'd better do just that! :D:p

Offline Morpheus

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How's he do it?
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2005, 06:03:09 AM »
Beetle go away. No one likes your limey ***.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WORRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2005, 08:28:00 AM »
While I'm flattered that Beetle so vividly recalls his one single fight with me in years of Aces High, I recollect that fight a bit differently than he does.  I'm also fairly certain that any private messages from me would not have contained any of the remarks listed by Beetle unless done tongue-in-cheek with some expectation of a sense of humor at the other end.


:aok

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2005, 10:25:47 AM »
:p Morpheus! Give my warmest wishes to Streetstang! :lol
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
While I'm flattered that Beetle so vividly recalls his one single fight with me in years of Aces High, I recollect that fight a bit differently than he does.  I'm also fairly certain that any private messages from me would not have contained any of the remarks listed by Beetle unless done tongue-in-cheek with some expectation of a sense of humor at the other end.
LOL Levi! I'm flattered that you remember it at all! I made up some of the comments - I think that is obvious - as I couldn't remember exactly what you said. However, you did say the first one, or words to that effect. ;)

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2005, 10:31:57 AM »
You do this all of the time Beetle. You make some bullchit turn of events up up to try and fit into a subject that has absoutly nothing to do with you what so ever, all the while looking like the same belligerant fool you've always been.

It almost hurts to see you make such a fool out of yourself.

But keep it up.:aok
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WORRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Furious

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How's he do it?
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2005, 11:46:02 AM »
Beatle's problem is that noone thinks he is as great as he thinks he is.  

It drives him crazy.