Author Topic: First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774  (Read 2246 times)

Offline RedTop

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Re: Re: Re: Re: keep fighting the good fight sir
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2005, 03:18:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Tell me....  I had posted that from a screen name that said it was Christian, would you react the same?


Yep
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Offline Chairboy

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: keep fighting the good fight sir
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2005, 03:40:49 PM »
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Originally posted by RedTop
Yep
Skeptical.
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Offline ChickenHawk

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2005, 03:36:09 AM »
Seagoon, it was not the intent of my original post to bring up the argument of which day to worship on.  I simply wanted to say that Sunday was the first day of the week.  But after your last post, I feel obligated to respond.

First let me say that I have enjoyed reading your posts and have agreed with most of them up until now.  They have been eloquent and well thought out, but have a few issues with your last.

The old seventh-day Sabbath, which was the Jewish Sabbath, is abrogated, and in the place of it the first day of the week, which is the Christian Sabbath, succeeds. The morality or substance of the fourth commandment does not lie in keeping the seventh day precisely, but keeping one day in seven is what God has appointed.

This is an opinion and not bible based.  To say that the substance is in the keeping of one day and not the day appointed by God is to rewrite the law.  

Christ said in Matthew Chapter 5 verse 18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.  And in Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Not by ecclesiastic [church] authority. “The church,” says Mr Perkins, “has no power to ordain a Sabbath.”

But the church did just that.  It’s a well documented fact that the Roman Catholic Church changed the day of worship to Sunday around 300AD as was mentioned twice in this thread already.  Ask any Bishop.  It is not a secret.
 
(1) The change of the Sabbath from the last day of the week to the first was by Christ’s own appointment. He is “Lord of the Sabbath.” Mark 2:28. And who shall appoint a day but he who is Lord of it? He made this day. “This is the day which the Lord has made.” Psalm 118:24. Arnobius and most expositors understand it of the Christian Sabbath, which is called the “Lord”s-day.” Rev. 1:10. Christ instituted the Sabbath, and thus it is called the Lord’s Day. Sunday is the day of resurrection; Christ rose on the first day of the week, out of the grave, and appeared twice on that day to his disciples, John 20:19, 26, which was to imply to them, as Augustine and Athanasius say, that he transferred the Jewish Sabbath to the Lord’s day.

Non of these texts say the day was changed to Sunday.  Christ died on Friday, rested in his grave on Saturday and was raised on Sunday.  Never once did He say that the Sabbath was changed to honor his resurrection.

Mark 16:1: And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2: And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

(2) The keeping of the first day was the practice of the apostles. “Upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them.” Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2. Here was both preaching and breaking of bread on this day. Augustine and Innocentius, and Isidore, make the keeping of our gospel Sabbath to be of apostolic sanction, and affirm, that by virtue of the apostles” practice, this day is to be set apart for divine worship. What the apostles did, they did by divine authority; for they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus and his disciples were Jews.  To say that they did not keep the Seventh day as the Sabbath is silly.  The apostles preached the Word every day of the week.  It is not surprising that they did it on Sunday in the above text, they also did it on other days of the week.  Again, nowhere does it say they were keeping the day holy.

Acts 18:4 And he [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

(3) The ancient church had the Lord’s day, which we now celebrate, in high estimation. It was a great badge of their religion to observe this day. Ignatius, the most ancient father, who lived in the time of John the apostle, has these words, “Let every one that loveth Christ keep holy the first day of the week, the Lord”s-day.” This day has been observed by the church of Christ above sixteen hundred years [Watson is writing in the late 1660s], as the learned Bucer notes. Thus you see how the seventh-day Sabbath came to be changed to the first-day Sabbath.

This is hearsay.  I don’t see anything from the Bible here.

The grand reason for changing the Jewish Sabbath to the Lord”s-day is that it puts us in mind of the “Mystery of our redemption by Christ.” The reason why God instituted the old Sabbath was to be a memorial of the creation; but he has now brought the first day of the week in its place in memory of a more glorious work than creation, which is redemption. Great was the work of creation, but greater was the work of redemption. As it was said, “The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former.” Hag. 2:9. So the glory of the redemption was greater than the glory of the creation. Great wisdom was seen in making us, but more miraculous wisdom in saving us. Great power was seen in bringing us out of nothing, but greater power in helping us when we were worse than nothing. It cost more to redeem than to create us. In creation it was but speaking a word (Psalm 148:5); in redeeming there was shedding of blood. 1 Pet. 1:19. Creation was the work of God”s fingers, Psalm 8:3, redemption was the work of his arm. Luke 1:51. In creation, God gave us ourselves; in the redemption, he gave us himself. By creation, we have life in Adam; by redemption, we have life in Christ. Col. 3:3. By creation, we had a right to an earthly paradise: by redemption, we have a title to a heavenly kingdom.

There is no arguing that redemption was the greatest gift to mankind, but that has little to do with changing the Sabbath day.  The Sabbath is forever.

Isaiah 66:22, 23. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord."

Christ might well change the seventh day of the week into the first, as it puts us in mind of our redemption, which is a more glorious work than creation."

He could have, but He didn’t.  It’s dangerous to tamper with God’s law.

Deuteronomy 4:2.  Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God.
Proverbs 30:5, 6.  Every word of God is pure. ... Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

What is boils down to is, the changing of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is not biblical.  You can read the Bible from the first word to the last and not find one verse that says the Sabbath day was changed.  It is a matter of history that a Roman emperor changed it.

I believe that people from all denominations will be saved.  Your walk with God is between you and Him.  But I also believe that when you meet your maker and he asks if you have kept His commandments, you had better have a good answer.

This post is not meant to offend anyone (although I’m quite sure it has,) I just thought I should show the readers the other side of the coin.

Being that you’re a minister and have quite remarkable credentials, I know that your already firmly entrenched in you belief.  Let us agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that.  As I have said, I enjoy reading your posts and look forward to seeing a good deal more of your wisdom.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline Nash

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2005, 03:42:36 AM »
Me ho mah... Ding bok choi.



Whatever.

Love one another. That's all.

I'd like to give a shout out to my crew; Careening Satellites of the Apocalypse, word.

Offline Lazerus

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2005, 04:05:28 AM »
I am by no means a biblical scholar, but my old man has spent a lifetime studying the bible and some of his findings have managed to stick in my dense ol' head.

It has been my understanding that the Sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday by a Roman emperor to accomodate his subjects that worshiped the sun. Unifying the empire was his primary objective, and the people that had worshiped the sun (a large percentage of the Roman Empire) wanted nothing to do with Christianity. The switch from Saturday to Sunday was made to accommodate the members of the Roman Empire that wouldn't observe the Sabbath, Saturday, but worshiped  their deity on Sunday.

By switching the official day of worship he effectively eliminated the animosity and strife that existed between the two factions of his empire.

Almost 2000 years later our culture still observes the Sabbath on the wrong day.



If it matters, worship and devotion to God, whomever He may be for you, is a daily practice, not a weekly obligation.

If you don't believe in a God, then the daily practice of the example of Christ, generosity, humbleness, kindness etc. is still a ruler to live your life by.

All this detris is IMHO of course.


5am here, my O aint so H right now :D

Offline moot

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2005, 04:30:35 AM »
Doctus cum libro.

When in her cyclopean sex I pushed in my stake, such Homer's Ulysses, I had it straight, rather bitter; tis I, great God, whom saw no more.
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Offline Lazerus

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« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2005, 05:05:29 AM »
What he^^ said!!






??:confused:??


bah, read it again, it's clear as milk now.

Offline Seagoon

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2005, 02:08:45 PM »
Chickenhawk,

Thank you for your kind words, I personally consider my credentials to be unremarkable, albeit expensive in more ways than one. ;)

I agree that this is not the best forum for internecine arguments amongst bible-believing Christians. An old proverb about laundry comes to mind.  So I'll close out my contributions to the "Why Sunday?" sub-thread with the following.

I have always been a great lover of history and one of my favorite areas of historical study is the documents of the early church - i.e. the writings that were produced just after the close of the apostolic age (somewhere about 90AD when John died) and the written dialogue amongst the Romans who were initially trying to figure out and actively suppress the early church.  To date, nothing I have read in these documents indicates that the early church met for worship on Saturday, in fact "the Lord's day" seems to have been the normal day for the gathered worship of the church. Let me give you just a couple of examples:

1) From the First Apology of Justin Martyr (a.d. 110-165)
This was addressed to the Emperor in an attempt to prove that the practices and beliefs of Christians were lawful and their persecution an injustice, apparently his work did not have the desired effect as he was martyred under Emperor Marcus Aurelius:

"And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration"
[Justin Martyr, First Apology, CHAP. LXVII.--WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS]

From the Didache (Circa Early 100s):
"But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure." [The Didache, Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day.]

Now it is possible that the practice of the early church changed very quickly in this respect following the death of the apostles, but unlikely. Also, keep in mind that the only day of the week that the church is spoken of as gathering to worship is on the Lord's Day - (Acts 20:7, Also compare Justin's comments about the collection on the Lord's Day to Paul's instruction in 1 Cor. 16:1-2)

Regarding the immutability of the Law, that God's moral is eternal, I will readily agree. But keep in mind that the Epistle to the Hebrews tells us that the Ceremonial Laws (see especially Hebrews 10) were shadows - specifically foreshadowing or pointing forward to the reality which came with Christ. The Decalogue (which is the substance of the Moral Law) specifies that one day in Seven is to be the Lord's Day devoted to rest and the worship  of the Lord, originally that day was Saturday, and commemorated the conclusion of God's creating work. Most Christians feel that now that the Lord's Day is to be celebrated on the "Lord's Day" and commemorates the conclusion of his work in redeeming creation

Regardless, I agree that when you observe the one day in seven is not an essential of salvation, and I have enjoyed fruitfull fellowship with many seventh day adventists. Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

Hoping you had an edifying Lord's Day I remain your servant,

SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Raider179

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First Prayer in Congress 9/7/1774
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2005, 04:12:53 PM »
Its because the Christians wanted to seperate completely from the Jews. So it got changed to Sunday.

Offline OIO

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« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2005, 05:23:57 PM »
I think the whole point is that when you combine religion with money then ultimately money becomes the religion.


And politics baby, is all about money.

Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2005, 05:36:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
Its because the Christians wanted to seperate completely from the Jews. So it got changed to Sunday.


I'm curious where you got this information.  I've been well versed in this subject for some time and have never heard this before.  By most accounts I've read, Las has the right of it.  I'm open minded though and would love to see a historical reference.

Seagoon,  I know we both have enough information supporting our own views to keep this thread alive for weeks, if not months.  This debate predates both of us and of course won't not be settled here, so I too will make this my last post on the subject.

I see that from your fellowship you already know that I hold the Commandments apart from the Ceremonial Laws that were nailed to the cross, but I will spare the board another long list of texts.

Regardless, it has been fun matching wits with you.  I know that we hold many of the same values and look forward to backing you up on other subjects.

Your brother in Christ,
ChickenHawk
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2005, 06:48:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
I'm curious where you got this information.  I've been well versed in this subject for some time and have never heard this before.  By most accounts I've read, Las has the right of it.  I'm open minded though and would love to see a historical reference.

B]


You never heard that christians split off from the jews? Anyway my point was that Christians, after persecution by the Romans, which the Jews had also faced (although earlier) wanted to have nothing to tie them to Judaism. I base it off the Theodosian Code. Written by the emperor Theodosius II 408-450 which contains all the edicts from Constantine I till his time. But if you want me to point out 1 certain quote I cannot. I base it on the lengths they went to to seperate themselves from judaism.

Here is one though

Theodosian Code XVI.1.2

We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since in out judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that the shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of divine condemnation an the second the punishment of out authority, in accordance with the will of heaven shall decide to inflict.





Here is how christianity became a recognized religion.

311 Emperor Galeriu in the grips of a frightening disease, decided to strike a bargain with the Christian God. His edict of toleration granted Christians freedom of worship, in exchange for their prayers for him. A few days after issuing the edict, Galerius was dead.

The following year Constantine I 306-337, a claimant to the imperial throne, was campaigning in Italy against a rival. According to Eusebius of Caesarea, prior to battle Constantine had a vision in which the christian god promised him victory, and shortly thereafter he won a decisive victory, therby becoming the uncontested emperor in the west. In gratitude, Constantine and the Emperor of the eastern half of the empire met in 313 in Milan where they reached an agreement regarding freedom of worship for all persons in the empire and recognition of the full legal status of each local christian church.

Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2005, 07:16:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
Christians, after persecution by the Romans, which the Jews had also faced (although earlier) wanted to have nothing to tie them to Judaism.


I stand corrected.  After you brought it to my attention I did some checking and I now see that this was also a contributing factor.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.