Author Topic: Iranian protesters removed from plane  (Read 1596 times)

Offline JB88

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10980
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2005, 10:13:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Remember we had the bomb.  The Soviets did not.


:D


On a completely different note.  Both Europeans and Americans need to recognize that since September 11th the United States has fundamentally changed its Foreign Policy philosophy.

Before Europe and the United States saw eye to eye.  Now our policies are completely different.  Both have the objective of maintaining peace and stability.

Europe still believes in maintaining the status quo is the best route to achieving peace and stability.  Even if that means getting in bed with dictators, murderers, etc...

The United States believes the road to peace and stability is by advancing individual rights, democracy, and the rule of law.  The theory being if people are happy with their stuff, they will not want to come and take your stuff.

The reforms you see in USA friendly Middle Eastern Governments are a direct result of this fundatmental policy shift.

This philosophy brings the old argument of "worlds policeman" to the forefront.  Is it the right path?  Can't say for sure.  I do think it is a better way as long as the noble outstrips the pragmatic.  One thing though is certain.  The old policy of maintaining the status quo did not work for us.  As the worlds "superpower" there is a tendency for the third world to place the blame for their problems on the USA.  If they place the blame, don't be surprised when a solution is offered.

All the best,

Crumpp


technically that is not entirely true.  the truman doctrine laid out the statement that the united states reserved the rights to act to protect its interests and/or the interests of its allies.  it paved the way for all of the interventionist activities that the united states has taken on since its creation.

so its not a new concept.  nor was it new when reagan ordered the libyan bombing in retaliation for lockerbie.  one of those convenient times when european interests were exactly the same as ours.

as for the united states spreading freedom and democracy...well, this is where i have a tendancy to take umbrage...

our first instinct was to curtail freedom and democracy within our own society through the patriot act and an increasingly conservative backlash against those who would oppose its desired order.  we set up detention facilities which denied other the due process of law which we were founded upon and we have even begun to erode that freedom for our own people.

the traits that we have begun to adopt are more reminiscent of hardline anti-freedom societies than the america that i grew up in.  i am not saying that we are one, but the danger of becoming such a society exists.  i believe that this is something that all americans stand to gain from opposing because it is our freedom and liberty which have allowed us to prosper.

my greatest concern is that.  that the tradeoff for our policies is our best qualites.  only time will tell.
this thread is doomed.
www.augustbach.com  

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2005, 11:02:44 AM »
Quote
technically that is not entirely true. the truman doctrine laid out the statement that the united states reserved the rights to act to protect its interests and/or the interests of its allies . it paved the way for all of the interventionist activities that the united states has taken on since its creation.


Which has NOTHING to do with Post 911 doctrine.  Post 911 doctrine is a fundamental change from any previous doctrine.  

Under the Truman doctrine if oppressive regimes did not interfer with US interest we were hands off IAW the policy of "maintain the status quo".  

Post 911 the United States deals with oppressive regimes completely differently.  It is not in our "pragmatic" interest to pressure countries such as Russia, Pakistan, Suadi Arabia, Kuwiat, and Eygpt for real democratic reforms.  


Quote
After the September 11 attacks, our Nation faced hard choices. We could fight a narrow war against al Qaeda and the Taliban or we could fight a broad war against a global menace. We could seek a narrow victory or we could work for a lasting peace and a better world. President Bush chose the bolder course.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/08/rice.transcript/

Quote
our first instinct was to curtail freedom and democracy within our own society through the patriot act and an increasingly conservative backlash against those who would oppose its desired order. we set up detention facilities which denied other the due process of law which we were founded upon and we have even begun to erode that freedom for our own people.


You need to educate yourself on the patriot act.  Your pretty ignorant of it's actual meaning.  It does not restrict anyones freedoms.

It just makes finding folks who want to hurt other folks much easier.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

Is there room for abuse?  Sure, as with anything.  Fortunately our courts are doing a pretty good job of protecting individual freedoms.  

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline JB88

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10980
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2005, 11:10:43 AM »
our courts are doing a great job?  just so long as we have independant minded "activist judges" right?

i have read the patriot act sir and it is a dangerous departure from our fundemental system of beliefs as a people.

there are those who would argue that the patriot act was little more than a broadened RICO act.  i couldnt disagree more.  the government now views all of  its people as potential enemies (notice is said enemies rather than criminals) it has stripped the government of any accountability to due process, eroded rights to privacy and has validated unconstitutional covert activities that had already occurred.

it is a beast turning itself inward and it is a dangerous precept, especially given the fundementalism that seems to be digging its heels in.

i will continue to live by american values, i hope that we can count on the others to do so as well.

i disagree with your assesment of post 9/11 doctrine.  vietnam is a great parrallel.

it is how we use the doctrine that is different...not the premise.

to some, this is the worst possible outcome of that doctrine.  to others, it is the best.  

time will tell on all things...but history shows us much already.

88
« Last Edit: March 12, 2005, 11:16:26 AM by JB88 »
this thread is doomed.
www.augustbach.com  

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline GrimCO

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
      • http://www.GrimsReapers.com
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2005, 11:16:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
My jab being?

I stated that europe is not ready to start invading other countries based on recent history.

Was that a jab? If it was, I don't understand the definition of jab. Were you referring to the boxing term?


Why should they? No sense getting the hands dirty when the U.S. can do it and become the whipping boy to boot.

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2005, 11:18:12 AM »
Quote
i disagree with your assesment of post 9/11 doctrine. vietnam is a great parrallel.


It is not my assesment.  It's the State Departments.

Totally different and nothing to do with Vietnam.  Except for a few "wish we lived in the 60's" liberals.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline JB88

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10980
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2005, 11:29:58 AM »
spread of communism.

spread of terrorism.

call it what you will...maybe it should be neo-truman doctrine.

lol.
this thread is doomed.
www.augustbach.com  

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. -Ulysses.

word.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2005, 12:53:47 PM »
I think I could search out multiple posts of what I (and I'm sure other Americans) consider "slams". It'd take some time but it could be done. Much easier to highlight it for you the next time it comes around though.

However, I'd love to hear how we got in it to "save our own ass".

Do tell.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Siaf__csf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2005, 02:35:56 PM »
Toad my personal opinnion is that most of us europeans would like nothing but have good relations with you folks.

Granted, there are exceptions. But I personally don't know anyone who would be really anti-american. My wife is an exception, but she had a bad love affair with an american once so that might affect. :rolleyes:

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3910
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2005, 02:50:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
You do not get slammed for not getting into WWII earlier. However that particular fact is used as a counterpoint when Americans claim they selflessly saved Europe. You got in it to save your own ass, not ours.


That is more than a bit over dramatic.

The US could easily committed much less to control Hitler and the Japs but went for the liberation of the other countries instead at a cost of hundreds of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2005, 03:01:47 PM »
Rabbit, let's let him explain that comment.

I'm sure I'm going to just love this one.


Siaf, I don't doubt that. I'm sure you realize most American return that sentiment.

Still the somewhat continual drumbeat of beeching about Bush, about Amreeka's foreign policy, the comparisons to Hitler, etc., etc. get pretty tiresome.

Why? Because here's the bottom line as Colin Powell put it so eloquently:

Quote
"We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we’ve done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in, and otherwise we have returned home to seek our own, you know, to seek our own lives in peace, to live our own lives in peace.

But there comes a time when soft power or talking with evil will not work where, unfortunately, hard power is the only thing that works."


I think that statement resonates very deeply amongst a very large number of American families that have lost relatives when we have gone forth from our shores.

Say all you like about "national interest" but the bottom line is that unlike Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia, we returned home to seek our own lives in peace.

We'll leave Afghanistan before too awfully long after helping to establish a freely elected government. The same can be said about Iraq. Now whether or not those folks have the gumption and grit to maintain their freedom remains to be seen. It's not an easy thing by any means; there will be problems.

That's the reason I think so many of us American get majorly P.O.'d when we see the comparisons to Hitler and such.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2005, 03:41:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Dunno rabbit, you tell me. You can't blame anyone for doing something you did yourself so it's a moot point.


Funny how you tapdance on landmines and never answer questions.  Do us a favor, stop posting.

Karaya
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Siaf__csf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2005, 03:51:41 PM »
The whole question was not worth an answer given the circumstance. If I had answered it, he would have found reason for a flame, which I would have to counter etc.

When I see someone is trolling, I try not to feed him. Often I fail though.

Offline Skydancer

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1606
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2005, 05:35:51 PM »
Toad. I don't realy disagree, with you about the fact that American servicemen gave their lives for a good cause or to help liberate Europe from Nazism.

But I do on this point

"Say all you like about "national interest" but the bottom line is that unlike Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia, we returned home to seek our own lives in peace."

Simply because I grew up with an awfull lot of American Hardware and personnel not many miles from my folks home! East Anglia sometimes felt a bit like one big US base. So I gues your troops did not all go home. And still there are an awfull lot of you guys stationed throughout the world very far from the US.

Now I'm not saying thats a bad thing. Simply that your above statement isn't exactly true!

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3910
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2005, 05:45:46 PM »
there is a huge difference between them and and invading army sky.


Saif,

You were not interested in a discussion.  You just took a cheap shot and I did the same.

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3910
Iranian protesters removed from plane
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2005, 06:59:58 PM »
Saving europe was certainly high on the list or America could simply have held Germany at bay.  Germany was never a serious threat to the us domestically.  regardless of how you phrase it, it was Europe who pulled the US into both world wars.