Italian fighters

[M.C.202]

He he... I don't think I would like what I would see, even though we moved to Vegas for first grade. The club was on Biscane Blvd. Look up "The Vagabond Club" from the early to mid '50's... I'm still stuck with a love of Art-Deco caused by Miami. "I used to valet at the fountainbleau". Now THAT hotel had style.

"and all the wiseguys hung out there"  I have no idea of who you mean. All those guys were independent business men. Just ask them. You know,  “The Boys”. None in Vegas either.

[Gianlupo]

Originally posted by Krusty
Hardly!! Way more c.205s were made than were made with the G55, and the c.205 was a rare bird itself!

No, if you're looking for standard Italian planes during the second world war, you need to look for the G50, the CR 200 or maybe (maybe) the Re2000 radial series.

Indeed, you're right Krusty, the 205 was produced in more exemplars than the 55, and it was rare.

As for the standard fighter of the Regia Aeronautica, it is hard to know exactly how many exemplars of one type were in service at a given time, but we could roughly argue which were the most used types looking at the production numbers: as far as I know, the model produced in the highest number was the Fiat CR. 42, a fighter biplane produced in about 1800 exemplars (the exact number varies according to the different sources).

The Macchi C.200 (not CR.!) Saetta was produced in about 1150 exemplars, while the Reggiane Re. 2000 Falco was produced in about 300 exemplar and it wasn't in service with the Regia Aeronautica, being used only by the Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy), with 36 exemplars, modified to be used with catapult. Instead, it saw service in foreign countries, particulary Hungary and Sweden (notice, however, that some sources state that the Regia Aeronautica had 1 squadron of Re.2000 in service). Only the following Re.2001 and Re.2002 were in service with the Regia Aeronautica (about 237 and 225 exemplar built, the latter being used even by the Luftwaffe).

The other only fighters produced in a reasonable (yet insufficient, if compared with other countries) number were the Macchi C.202 Folgore (about 1100 exemplars) and the Fiat G.50 Freccia (about 780).

Again, I have to specify that production numbers couldn't tell us which was the most used model in service at a given time, but they give us a hint in that direction.

As for the "ueber plane" matter. Greenteneral and Gatt are right, the G.55 wasn't a ueber plane (given for granted that we can at all speak about "ueber planes": any plane has weaknesses, fortunately, and it's all a matter of how good is a pilot to exploit only the strong sides of his ride that makes a plane better than another, even in this game, not only in real life): the Centauro was a good designed, on an equal footing with the foreign fighters produced in 1943. with strong performances in certain conditions, and poor ones in others. So, I still hope to see it in AHII, possibly along with the Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario, another great italian plane.

And, Greenteneral, it was not a "O" version of the G.55 but a "0" (zero) series (and the subsequent I -first- series, in latin numbers), the preproduction series, with weaker armament (1 20mm cannon and 4 12.7mm machine gun; they were just 12 planes).

About the French plane topic, well, again as far as I know, they didn't do well against German planes, with the exception of the Dewoitine D.520, well able to  put in trouble a Bf 109; but I admit that I have searched few sources about French planes.

Ok, I think you had enough of my boring (and presumptuous ) lessons, guys! Just one last thing: I'm working on a website dedicated to italian WWII planes, so I'd like to have help in finding sources, particularly about the less known birds (Gatt, questa è soprattutto per te!)  such as bombers, recon plane, trainers, etc. Thank you!
Bye!

[gatt]

Si?

[Gianlupo]

Ciao Gatt!:)

I just guessed that, being you italian, maybe you could help me in find some sources about the less known italian warbirds of WWII, for my project: can you suggest me books, possibly specialized bookshops in Tuscany, or even some good website?
Of course, the request is forwarded to anyone who thinks he could help. (Ecco perchè ho scritto in inglese... e poi non si sa, mai, magari mi si offendevano se scrivevo in italiano! Un'ulitma cosa: perchè hai scelto quella frase come firma?)

Thanks.

[scott123]

The Dewoitine D 520, was a good aicraft in 1940,and performed well,but it arrived in numbers to late, just before the French collapse. French airman shot down 108 axis planes with the  D 520 before the French capitulation.

 by the way D 520 pilot Pierre Le Gloan claimed 4 Hurricanes in Syria in June 1941.

 That said the D 520 would not suit the MA,but would be good for scenarios,and the CT.

[Lazerus]

http://www.aldini.it/re2005/

[agent 009]

I have had some interest in Italian planes as well. Outturn 109 & Mustang. I recently read a FW 190 in Medditerranean book. It ststed the germans did not like the 2005 as it stalled to easy at slow speeds & was not robust enough. Only 2 kills were recorded by germans in North Italy with this plane.

[gatt]

Ciao Lupo,

dimmi cosa ti serve. Ho parecchia roba da parte. Quasi tutta "scannerizzata".

Bookshop online specializzati? Senza dubbio http://www.abebooks.com che, anche se non specializzato, localizza qualsiasi libro usato.

La frase della firma? La trovo piuttosto azzeccata e neanche troppo pesante nei confronti degli italiani, soprattutto se detta da quel bastardo di Beurling  

Buon lavoro!

[Gianlupo]

Lazerus, thanks for the link, I didn't know this site, really nice.

Agent 009, about the 2005,  as far as I know (as always), the (relative) structural weakness of the tail section, caused by the high speed easily achieved by this plane in dives, forced to land all the Sagittario, but was corrected by strengthening the aft fuselage, just before the Armistice. Regarding the Germans' opinion about this plane, all the Series 5 fighters (C.205, G.55 and Re.2005) were tested by a Luftwaffe technical board of pilots and engineers (even Kurt Tank, the 190 father), whose opinion was quite good for all of these planes (even though they recommended to concentrate the production on the G.55 only, considering it to be the best of the trio). As for the service with the Luftwaffe, I know that is only rumored that 13 exemplars of the Sagittario were used by the Germans against Allies raids over Berlin, or, according to other sources, over the Romanian oil fields, but, again as far as I know, there are no certain  evidence of such use. So, that kill record seems suspect to me, for what I know. Anyway, consider that only 30/48 (numbers varying with the sources) Sagittario were built before the Armistice, so they couldn't play a great role in the war.

E, finalmente, caro Gatt, grazie per aver risposto al mio appello!
Nel sito, ho in mente di avere tre sezioni principali, dedicate rispettivamente ai mezzi, agli uomini e alle battaglie dell'aeronautica italiana nella IIGM; ho cominciato a scrivere le prime schede di aerei, ma purtroppo son riuscito a raccogliere materiale sufficiente solo per i velivoli più famosi, per lo più i caccia e qualche bombardiere, come lo Sparviero.
Come vedi ho bisogno di molto materiale, qualcosa sto già cercando di recuperare (ho scoperto un'ottima libreria a Milano, http://www.libreriamilitare.com/  ) in particolare sugli aerei meno conosciuti: come i Ba.65, Ba.88, Ro.57, FC.20, i ricognitori come i Caproni Ca.310 e (?)312, o gli idrovolanti, ma anche su macchine più note, delle quali conosco comunque poco o nulla, come tutta la produzione CANT.
Come vedi ho ancora molto lavoro di ricerca da fare, così ti sarò grato per l'eternità per tutto l'aiuto che potrai darmi (la slinguazzata è d'obbligo! ):ti mando una mail con l'indirizzo di posta che uso più spesso (quello che ho lasciato all'HTC è "di servizio"), così, se vuoi, puoi mandarmi un po' di materiale.
Grazie mille!

P.S. Hai ragione, "Screwball", da quel che ho letto, era un gran  bastardo, e, tutto sommato, ci ha fatto un gran complimento! Mi incuriosiva il termine "Eyeties": non sono riuscito a tradurlo, vuol dire "fabbricanti di gelati", come sembra da quel che c'è scritto qui http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/beurling/beurling.htm?

[agent 009]

Do you suppose The Macci 2002 could outturn the Spit?

[gatt]

No, the Macchi C202 was not supposed to outturn Spitfires MkV Trop.

Actually, the C.202 was faster than those Trop Spits at medium altitudes and was used with "hit and run" (or climb) techniques by italian pilots over NA and Malta.

Thats what the former 4 Stormo, 9 Gruppo, 96 Squadriglia commander E. Annoni (11 victories) told me a couple of years ago.

When I asked him if he actually saw his victims falling down he looked at me amazed and told me: "hell, perhaps my wingman saw them falling or parachuting, I had only the time for a short burst. Then I had to extend and climb away!"

[Gianlupo]

Well Nine,

I can't give you a straight answer.

First of all, while there was basically one only version of the Folgore (btw, it is Macchi and 202; the 2002 was a Reggiane fighter), there were many Spit variants, and they had different handling characteristics, given the evolution that the design had during the war. So, we can't just say "the Macchi outturned the Spitfire", we have to be more specific, and state which Spit we're talking about.

Second, the outturn matter itself it's too generic: turn rate and turn radius vary according to the conditions that they are recorded in, so, maybe the Spit V could outturn the 202 under 200 mph, but it was outturned over that speed; and there are more variables to keep in mind, e.g. altitude or weight.

Finally, there's the report matter: often you can find the opinions that an English or an Italian pilot had of enemy's aircraft. In most of the cases, when they're not too generic, they are just impressions that pilots had encountering that plane in combat and, as we can easily imagine, these impressions can't be objective (due to the  heat of combat, mainly). Sometimes, the pilots could fly a captured enemy machine and make a more solid test of its flying characteristics: but even in this case, all we have is an opinion, not a direct comparison. Finally, during the war, the captured planes were used in mock combat to make a direct comparison with its opponents, but, as far as I know, such a test was never made between a Folgore and a Spitfire. But I'm not THAT big expert of history of flight, so, maybe, someone else can know about it.

What I can tell you is that for what I know, the Macchi did well in combat against the Spit V, mostly in Africa, but, of course, it is too generic to say that it could outturn the Spit.

I'm sorry, I can't satisfy your curiosity: but, if you want, we may meet in free rooms and find out if the Folgore can outturn the Spit in AH!

[agent 009]

Thanks Gian, The Tony could outturn the Spit at low speed, but above 350, not.

[Gianlupo]

Tony? Do you mean the Kawasaki Ki- 61 Hien?

[agent 009]

Yah.